Volume 19 Number 77
                       Produced: Tue May 30 22:38:58 1995

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Covering the Elbows
         [M. Press]
Dvar Torah
         [Jack Stroh]
Elec/Magnetic form of God's name
         [Aaron H. Greenberg]
Males, bechorim and censuses
         [Abraham Lebowitz]
Molad time vs. standard time
         [Mike Gerver]
Names of God and Erasure
         [Cheryl Hall]
Piano Playing in Front of Amputee Parent
         [Joel Goldberg]
Searching for a song
         [Gil Winokur]
Special Request
         [Yehudah Edelstein]
Vegetarian food..
         [Zvi Weiss]
Yeshiva, in Zichron Yaakov, for autistic children
         [Gad Frenkel]


Date: Mon, 29 May 95 01:09:24 EST
Subject: Re: Covering the Elbows

I don't have time to respond at length now but I wish to correct a major
error in Aliza Berger's recent posting at to the definition of "shok" in
a human being.  The substantial majority of rishonim and akharonim who
discuss the matter agree that "shok" is the lower arm or leg and that a
woman is therefore expected to cover her body up to the wrist or ankle.
Women who do so are not following "minhag hamakom" but are adhering to
the view of the poskim.  The leniency practiced in current circles of
only covering to below the knee or elbow is based primarily on the
leniency of the Mishna Berura (the saintly Chofetz Chaim was kind to
bnos Yisroel).

It is also important to note that there is not necessarily a
relationship between what a man may daven in front of and what a woman
should cover - witness the famous Arukh Hashulkhan who requires women to
cover their hair (as do all poskim) but allows men to daven in the
presence of uncovered female hair.

Melech Press
M. Press, Ph.D.   Dept. of Psychiatry, SUNY Health Science Center
450 Clarkson Avenue, Box 32   Brooklyn, NY 11203   718-270-2409


From: Jack Stroh <jackst@...>
Date: Sat, 27 May 1995 21:37:29 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Dvar Torah

A friend asked me to submit this. His step-son's bar mitzvah is coming up 
(parshat Shlach) and he wanted to know if anybody knew of anywhere in the 
TANACH where it is mentioned that another man's son can be considered as 
if it is yours (in addition to the case where Aharon's sons are 
considered to be Moshe's because he taught them Torah). Thanks. 
BTW, any interesting dvar torah's on Shlach would be appreciated!


From: Aaron H. Greenberg <greenbah@...>
Date: Tue, 23 May 1995 20:08:19 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Elec/Magnetic form of God's name

Several years ago, I videotaped a show about Israel.  In it, someone
recited a bracha with Hashem's name.  I asked my local Rav, Rabbi Aaron
Felder, of Philadelphia, and he said that the videotape could be erased,
and that the magnetic representation of Gods name does not count.

David Charlap mentioned that a random occurance of symbols may form Gods
name and it could not be erased.  I don't remember where I saw it, by I
recall having heard that in order for something to be considered Gods
name, _kavana_ in it's creation is required.  If this is not the case,
here are some problems.  The double quote character (") can easily be
seen as two yuds in hebrew forming God's name.  Another place where this
would come up is when writing hebrew or yiddish words that have two yuds
next to each other within the word.

Mark, if you disagree still, about an elctronic representation of Gods
name not counting consider the following:

(Note: Before anyone passes judgment on whether any electronic
representation of Gods name should be holy or not they should have a
good understanding of that electronic medium.  As someone who will be an
electrical engineer in less that a month, i think I can do that)

The magnetic bits of an audio/ video cassette tape are nothing more than
a representation of an analog electronic signal.  This signal when
applied to a speaker, causes the speaker to vibrate, such that we hear
gods name or what ever else being spoken.  So if anything, it is the
electronic signal itself that is holy.  This signals existence in the
wire ceases to exist after it hits the speaker.  So if this is the case,
no more Torah tapes, no more using microphones at dinners to give Divrei
Torah, etc.  No radio transmissions of Torah, nothing that involves the
sending/recording electronically of material that is kadosh can be

Now, as for computers: In a computer as someone pointed out, all
information is at the basic level just ones and zeros.  If the
intentional representation of Gods name, that when interpreted by an
intended program were to be considered holy we would have to accept the
following consequences.  The Talmud or any other Torah, (that we would
not destroy but put in shamos) could not be put onto CD-ROM or disk.
Everytime you use it, a copy what is on disk, in an equally as valid
form is in your computers RAM.  Now you can not 'quit' the program,
doing so will erase it from your computers memory.  Not only that, if
you regard the bitmapped representation of the letters as holy you can't
even scroll through the text becuase your screen buffer (memory where
screen info is stored) is being erased.  If by any chance this should
happen to you, you could never use your computer again, and would have
to keep it turned on forever.

Basically, if you are not going to accept that electronic/magnetic
representation doesn't count, than you must forbid all
electronic/magnetic representation entirely and perhaps you should
unsubscribe from this mailing list due to the amount of Torah quoted

Aaron Greenberg                                __   __
<greenbah@...>                    |    |
  -Those who still beleive that the electronic representation of God's
   name still counts please consult your local rabbi before proceeding
   to the next peice of mail.


From: <aileb@...> (Abraham Lebowitz)
Date: Mon, 29 May 1995 00:45:56 +0300
Subject: Males, bechorim and censuses

	Each year, as we read Parshat Bamidbar, I am struck by the
interesting, and to me puzzling, results of the census that was taken in
the second year after yetzi'at mitzrayim (the exodus from Egypt). The
first figures given are for males, twenty years old and older (Numbers
1:2-3 says: "Take the sum of all the congregation of the children of
Israel... from twenty years old and upward...." The total number found
as a result of this census, not including the Levi'im, is given in 2:32:
"all that were numbered were...  603,550." Moses was also commanded to
(3:40): "Number all the first-born males of the children of Israel from
a month old and upward..." The result of this count of bechorim
(first-born sons) is given in 3:43 as: "those that were numbered of them
were 22,273."

     The bechorim involved were those who were first born to their mothers.
As each mother could be expected to have only one first born child, we
can conclude that each mother had an average of more than 27.1
(603550/22273) children!! In fact, the number of bechorim over twenty
years old is presumably less than the 22,273, so the average number of
kids per mother is even higher, possibly twice as high if half the
population is under 20. Though we know that while in Egypt the Jews were
prolific (see the Pesach Hagadah), these numbers seem extraordinary.

     Look at it another way: The total population should have been been:
          Men (over 20)     600,000
          Women(over 20)    600,000 (about the same as men)
          Kids (under 20) 1,200,000 (about the same as for men and women
                                     combined, assuming a life expectancy
                                     of about 40)
          Total           2,400,000

     Out of this population of almost 2.5 million, there would be a
total of only about 45,000 women who achieved motherhood (22,500 whose
first child was a boy, and 22,500 whose first child was a
girl). Assuming 600,000 women over 20, this means that only 7.5% had
children. And what were all the other women doing?  And the men?

     One hypothesis would be that, for some unexplained reason, the
overwhelming majority of first-born children was female. Another one
that comes to mind is that there was a very high infant mortality among
bechorim, but I can think of nothing that would have caused
it. Pharaoh's order to drown male babies was not limited to bechorim. I
think the Gemara says that first babies are a danger, but this is to the
mother, not the child.

     I started by saying that I find these statistics puzzling and I
have not found any explanation among the perushim (commentaries) that I
have been able to consult.  Perhaps some m-j'er can help?

Abe & Shelley Lebowitz			<aileb@...>


From: <GERVER@...> (Mike Gerver)
Date: Mon, 29 May 1995 1:15:03 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Molad time vs. standard time

> Thus, if the Molad is announced for 12:00 noon, it will actually occur
> at 11:39 AM Israel Standard Time, 9:39 AM Greenwich Mean Time, and 4:39
> AM Eastern Standard Time. I hope this answers your question.

This makes no sense to me. The molad is not a physical event occuring at
a particular absolute time. It is a number that you get as part of the
process of calculating on what day Rosh Chodesh will fall. It is not
associated with any time zone. If you have to associate it with a time
zone, Jersualem local time makes as much sense as any, but by then
translating it into Eastern Standard Time or whatever, it seems to me
that you are misleading people as to what the concept of molad means.
What I find particularly objectionable is a practice I saw at one shul,
where the molad was "translated" into the standard time of that shul,
and announced at that time, with no comment whatever. That is very
misleading, since knowing the molad allows you to calculate Rosh Chodesh,
and all the Yom Tovim, indefinitely into the future, and if you attempt
to translate it into your own time zone first, you will calculate the
calendar incorrectly.

Mike Gerver, <gerver@...>


From: <CHERYLHALL@...> (Cheryl Hall)
Date: Thu, 25 May 1995 21:46:17 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Names of God and Erasure

Where does the kedusha come from for all these substitute
representations?  We have a substitute for a substitute for a
substitute. Why bother substituting if the substitute assumes the same
kedusha. I have recently seen published in a magazine article "HaSh-m",
this seems absurd.

Cheryl Hall
Long Beach CA USA


From: <goldberg@...> (Joel Goldberg)
Date: Mon, 29 May 1995 11:15:29 +0200 (WET)
Subject: Piano Playing in Front of Amputee Parent

<AryehBlaut@...> (Aryeh Blaut) wrote:
> One of my fourth graders asked me the following question today and I
> thought that it might make interesting discussion:
> If someone's parent lost either a couple of fingers (or may be a hand),
> would it be proper for a child to play the piano in his/her company?

    I certainly hope so, since my wife cannot play the piano, nor walk,
 nor feed herself, nor write. I don't know how I would enforce having
 our two children (so far, bli ayin hara) sit only in wheelchairs.
    Joel Goldberg


From: Gil Winokur <gil@...>
Date: Fri, 26 May 1995 10:33:51 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Searching for a song

I am looking for a song which has been described to me.  The description 
I have is that the song is based on the words "Boee Kallah", is sung to a 
beat, and is popularly played at hesder Yeshiva weddings in Israel, at a 
point in the dancing when the Kallah is brought over to the men's side.
If anyone could help me locate sheet music, a tape, a performer, a 
composer, or any additional clues to this song, I would be most grateful.

Thanks in advance,

Gil Winokur


From: <yehudah@...> (Yehudah Edelstein)
Date: Mon, 29 May 1995 08:12:07 +0200
Subject: Special Request

This may not be the proper forum but I have a request. [Sounds OK to me,
I view m-j as an extended family, and this is a request one might make
of family. Mod.]
My wife arrived in Chicago yesterday, to be by her father who just suffered
a heart attack. Is there anyone with internet access in the local area
North Mozart, Chicago.
Either e-mail directly to me, or notify Beverly Edelstein @Solomon, 
tel. 312-7641939.
Thank you,
Yehudah Edelstein "<yehudah@...>" Raanana, Israel


From: Zvi Weiss <weissz@...>
Date: Mon, 29 May 1995 08:22:42 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Vegetarian food..

I would like to point out regarding the posting of vegetarian food in 
Britain that one reason why there is no blanket permission from the 
Kashrut authorities in this area is that there may still be Kashrut issues.

Specifically, Bishul Akum still applies to food that is otherwise 
kosher.  The poster did not fully describe the foods in question so I 
could not tell whether this is an issue or not BUT that may be a serious 
factor in the lack of "automatic" kashrut of vegetarian foods.



From: Gad Frenkel <0003921724@...>
Date: Mon, 29 May 95 07:53 EST
Subject: Yeshiva, in Zichron Yaakov, for autistic children

Does anyone have any information on a Yeshiva, in Zichron Yaakov I
believe, that is reputed to be very successful with autistic children?

Gad Frenkel


End of Volume 19 Issue 77