Volume 21 Number 58
                       Produced: Fri Sep 29 16:18:51 1995

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Domino's Pizza (Jerusalem) - Act II
         [Shmuel Himelstein]
Funeral Custom
         [Andy Levy-Stevenson]
Halachic Times
         [Mike A Singer]
Jewish beliefs of Tarot cards and mysticism
         [lindsay cohn]
Lulav case (Issue 53?)
         [Myron Chaitovsky]
messianic Jews
         [Lois Miller]
Mixed Choir
Nonkosher Birds
         [Eli Turkel]
Order of Tehillim at a Beit Avel
         [Malkiel Glasser]
Pronunciation of the Divine Name
         [Mark Steiner]
Teaching at Christian Universities
         [Art Werschulz]
Zmanim Program (2)
         [Akiva Miller, Dan Goldish]


From: Shmuel Himelstein <himelstein@...>
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 16:14:21 GMT
Subject: Domino's Pizza (Jerusalem) - Act II

As was noted on this forum a few weeks ago, one of the three Domino's
Pizza stores in Jerusalem decided to open on Shabbat and to offer
pepperoni (a meat salami) as one of the optional toppings on its cheese
pizza. Of course the rabbinate yanked its endorsement from that branch -
but also from the other two branches of the company, because its policy
has always been that either all the branches of a company are kosher, or
there can be no endorsement. This avoids any problems of confusion.

Last week, Domino's "struck back," by having at least one of its two
remaining outlets in Jerusalem also open on Shabbat.

It would be interesting if anyone might have any halachic insights into
what would be preferable: all three outlets being officially non-kosher
and thus avoiding any confusion, or remaining with one non-kosher outlet
and two kosher ones.

As an interesting sidelight and evidence of the gross ignorance of some
Israelis in matters of halachah, when the first branch decided to open
on Shabbat and to offer pepperoni as a topping, the spokeswoman of the
chain defended its actions on the grounds that the pepperoni which is
used is a kosher brand!

         Shmuel Himelstein
22 Shear Yashuv Street, Jerusalem, Israel
Phone: 972-2-864712; Fax: 972-2-862041
NEW ADDRESS: <himelstein@...>


From: Andy Levy-Stevenson <andyls@...>
Date: 29 Sep 1995 09:21:33 -0600
Subject: Funeral Custom

>  My father attended a funeral recently, and noticed that the first
>shovel of soil was thrown with the back of the shovel and the rest were
>thrown with the front of the shovel. He asked me the reason for this
>custom and I didn't know. Does anybody know the reason for this custom?

I've only lurked on this list for a short while (and am uniformly
impressed with the level and breadth of discussion), so if I stumble
over any list *conventions*, please excuse me.

In Minneapolis, where I live, this custom is widespread; at pretty much
every funeral I've attended, regardless of the denominational *variety*
of Rabbi, people initially use the back of the shovel.

I've heard two explanations; one which is occasionally proffered at the
graveside, and another I've heard in more casual conversations.

1. We show our reluctance to bid farewell by deliberately making our
task a little more difficult, using the back of the shovel.

2. In the frozen north of Minnesota, a heavily-loaded shovel of
ice-laden earth dropped from six feet could actually split open the
casket; it's hard to fully load the back of a shovel, so this
possibility is avoided. Although this is a somewhat prosaic explanation,
I have a feeling it's the more accurate one.

A sweet year to all,

Andy Levy-Stevenson


From: <m-singer@...> (Mike A Singer)
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 19:42:53 -0500
Subject: Halachic Times

The Orthodox Union's _Luach and Limud_ booklets list two times for the
end of Shabbat each week.  The first is identified as "shitas
Ha'Gaonim," and the second as "shitas Rabbenu Tam."  Similarly, two
times are listed for the latest hour at which the Shema can be recited:
"Latest Time Shema (M.A.)" and "Latest Time Shema (Grah)."  What is the
source of these differences, and which times are commonly used?

Finally, the booklet also lists a time designated "Plag Hamincha."  Is
that the latest time at which Mincha should be said?

Thanks very much, and shana tova.

Mike Singer


From: <le_cohn@...> (lindsay cohn)
Date: Fri, 22 Sep 1995 23:17:54 -0500
Subject: Jewish beliefs of Tarot cards and mysticism

Hello. I am the social vice president from Franklin and Marshall
Hillel. I was hoping that you could help me information on a speaker who
discusses Jewish beliefs of Tarot cards and mysticism. Thank you for
your help. Have a healthy and happy new year.

Lindsay Eileen Cohn
Box #316, Franklin & Marshall College
P.O. Box 3220, Lancaster, Pa. 17604-3220
tel. 717-399-5891


From: <MCHAIT.BROOKLAW@...> (Myron Chaitovsky)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 10:10 EST
Subject: Lulav case (Issue 53?)

For what it's worth, I have adopted the use of an adjustable,heavy duty
art poster case,complete with over the shoulder carrying strap for this
purpose.They are available for about $20 (US) at many art supply stores
and will accommodate a lulav up to 5 feet long. Preschool sales will
often knock this price down 25%.
Granted, I get stared at on my way to shul,and comments about my
bazooka or Rambo are rife but ,as I often need to travel during Chol
HaMoed,this beats anything I've ever seen for durability ,portability
and presentation.And dumb comments are just that--dumb.
By the way , I know of at least one individual who goes me one better,using
a high quality,stand-up, fishing rod case. Until cases are made in silver
(like a megillah case) I think he's top-rated in the hidur mitzvah
(doin' it right)category.


From: <loismi@...> (Lois Miller)
Date: Sun, 17 Sep 95 19:38:04 EDT
Subject: messianic Jews

My eldest daughter has converted to messianic judaism and lives in 
San Diego, CA.  Her birthdat is Oct 3 and I am going out there to
see her as I haven't seen her since 11/'93.  We talk on the phone
but haven't actually been together.  The last time I saw her in CA
was in '92 and she begged me to go to Sat. morning services with
her.  I did, but had to leave because I began crying hysterically.
She never discusses it with me anymore, but I told her that when
I came to San Diego I wanted to go to Kol Nidre services in a "real"
synagogue.  She said she understood, but asked me if I understood
her need to spend Yom Kippur day with her friends at their place
of worship. I told her she was old enough to decide for herself.
I have my youngest daughter in San Diego also (I have 5 children).
She has gone with the eldest to these services and likes the people
but told me she can't accept Jesus.  She told me she would go with
me wherever I go.  I don't know where to go or how to find out who
would allow us to attend services.  How can I find out?  And, also,
who in NY can I speak to about how to handle this messianic
problem?  I know there is an organization called Jews for Judaism
located in Toronto, but thats too far away.  What can I do and whom
can I call?  I am alone and have no one to advise me in this matter.
I would appreciate anything anyone can do to help me .  Thank You!
Lois Gordon-Miller


From: crp_chips <chips@...>
Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 22:21:19 -0700
Subject: Re:  Mixed Choir

A question was asked about the problems of a mixed choir. The problem is
that of 'Kol Isha' , that a man is not allowed to listen to a woman 
singing (yes, i know that was simplistic - hang on). While many people do
listen to radios, albums and even tv singing very few would cross the line
to live singing. I do know of one situation where a waiver of sorts was
obtained. The 'hunhalla' of a Bais Yaakov were allowed to wait in the hallway
of an auditurium while the girls choir sang. The 'meikel' that was given ,
and i must stress only to them, was that an indivual voice couldn't be
discerned. This would not help with a mixed choir in a shul and i'm interested
in the 'heter' given by Rabbis cited. 


From: Eli Turkel <turkel@...>
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 08:55:03 -0400
Subject: Nonkosher Birds

     The Torah lists the nonkosher birds in two places. In one place one
of the birds is called "da-ah" while in the other it is called "ra-ah".
The midrash explains the change in names. The "real" name is "da-ah".
However, this bird stands up in Baylonia and in order to see (ra-ah) the
evil in the land of Israel and so is called ra-ah.
      The commentaries explain that in contrast to animals and fish
there are no rules for nonkosher birds just a list. Thus, each bird is
nonkosher because it has some bad trait that Jews should avoid. Thus,
for example, birds of prey e.g. the hawk are nonkosher. Similarly a bird
that lives outside of Israel but can only see what is wrong inside of
Israel is a nonkosher bird.
      I can only conclude that even in the days of the Tanaim they had
problems with the Jews in Babylonia who constantly complained what was
wrong with the way Jews in Israel conducted themselves. The Tanaim
responded by refering to such people as nonkosher birds.

    We pray that we are seeing the end of this year with its curses but
the beginning of a new year with its blessings.

Eli Turkel     <turkel@...>


From: Malkiel Glasser <mglasser@...>
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 07:36:49 +0800 (PST)
Subject: Order of Tehillim at a Beit Avel

I was at a Bet Avel the other day and the following question came up. 
What should be said first after Maariv ( or Shacharit ) "Ledavid" or
"Lamnatzaich"?  I thought perhaps 'tadir veshayno tadir' ( the thing which
is done or said more often then the other, gets preference of being
done/said first ), therefore Ledavid would be said first.  Shana Tova.  



From: Mark Steiner <MARKSA@...>
Date: Fri,  29 Sep 95 15:42 +0200
Subject: Pronunciation of the Divine Name

	The passage quoted by Mordechai Pearlman about the pronunciation
of the Divine Name in the Ashkenazic and Sefardic tradition is from an
article I wrote for mail-jewish some time ago--I don't have the
reference.  In that article, by the way, I argued that the common
pronunciation "yasherkoach" is probably correct.  I mention this since
the issue came up recently again.

Mark Steiner


From: Art Werschulz <agw@...>
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 09:43:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Teaching at Christian Universities

Hi all.

I teach at Fordham University, which is a Jesuit university.  I have
never had any problems with my observance, missionary pressure, or the
like.  FWIW, I wear a kippa.  There are a few other dati-type folks on
the faculty here, and it appears that this has not hurt them any.

The only real problem I have is probably not peculiar to a Catholic
school. I need to figure out how to reschedule (or otherwise make up)
classes that conflict with Yamim Tovim.  Sometimes this requires a bit
of creativity.  For instance, I'm on sabbatical this semester, which
obviates all the usual problems.  Next semester, however, seems fairly

Gmar chatimah tovah.
Art Werschulz (8-{)}   "Metaphors be with you."  -- bumper sticker
GCS/M (GAT): d? -p+ c++ l u+(-) e--- m* s n+ h f g+ w+ t++ r- y? 
Internet:<agw@...> <a href="http://www.cs.columbia.edu/~agw/">WWW</a>
ATTnet:   Columbia U. (212) 939-7061, Fordham U. (212) 636-6325


From: <Keeves@...> (Akiva Miller)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 01:03:33 -0400
Subject: Re: Zmanim Program

In MJ 21:56, Warren Burstein asked about the Zmanim program which I mentioned
in MJ 21:54. He writes:
>Wouldn't it be necessary to modify the program for halachic sunrise
>and sunset times?  If I've got this right (and if I'm not, someone
>please correct me) halacha uses the time that the uppermost edge of
>the sun crosses the horizon, while astronomers use the center of the

According to the article in Sky & Telescope (Aug 94, pg 84) from which I
got this program, "By convention, astronomers say that sunrise or sunset
occurs when the sun's center lies 50 minutes of arc (50/60 of a degree -
A.M.) below the horizon, allowing 16 minutes for the radius of the solar
disk and 34 minutes for atmospheric refraction to lift the upper limb of
the sun to the horizon."

Thank you for alerting us to watch out for possible differences of
definition, but as far as I can tell, halacha defines it the sames as
the astronomers do, which is why the weather page of the local newspaper
is a pretty reliable source for the daily halachic times (barring typos,
which happen more often than they should, probably because it is
something which the proofreader will not doublecheck).

On The Other Hand: It appears that the halachic definitions are not
universally agreed upon. There is a zmanim calendar all the way in the
back of the Siddur Minchas Yerushalayim, and it lists three different
times for sunrise in Israel, differing by as much as 8 minutes!

From: <Dan_B_Goldish@...> (Dan Goldish)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 12:31 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Zmanim Program

Warren Burstein writes:
>Wouldn't it be necessary to modify the program for halachic sunrise
>and sunset times?  If I've got this right (and if I'm not, someone
>please correct me) halacha uses the time that the uppermost edge of
>the sun crosses the horizon, while astronomers use the center of the sun.

According to the U.S. Naval Observatory in Washington, where virtually
all sunrise/sunset time tables found in local U.S. newspapers originate:

"Sunrise and sunset are considered to occur when the upper edge of the
disc of the Sun appears to be exactly on the horizon.  The times of
sunrise and sunset given in this table are for an unobstructed horizon,
with normal atmospheric conditions, at zero (0) elevation above the
earth's surface in a level region.  The computations are based on a
constant semidiameter of the Sun of sixteen (16) minutes of arc, an
adopted refraction at the horizon of thirty-four (34) minutes of arc,
and the path of the sun for the year 1966."

And so, it seems this time around that astronomers and halacha are in
complete agreement with each other.

G'mar chasima tovah,

Dan Goldish
Boston, Mass.


End of Volume 21 Issue 58