Volume 21 Number 59
                       Produced: Mon Oct  2  8:06:59 1995

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Answering Machines and Yom Tov
         [Hadass Eviatar]
Fish and Milk
         [Steve Gindi]
Halachic Times
         [Ari Greenspan]
Let Us Make Man
         [Jay Kaplan]
Let us make man
         [David Charlap]
messianic Jews (2)
         [Yehoshua Kohl, Norbert Rosenthal]
Old Shas/Talmud from European Publisher
         [David Ferleger]
Origin of the name Charlap
         [Shmuel Himelstein]
Women and Zimmun - update
         [Aryeh Frimer]


From: Hadass Eviatar <eviatar@...>
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 09:45:25 -0500
Subject: Answering Machines and Yom Tov

Janice Gelb wrote:
[interesting stuff deleted]
> One issue that I haven't seen raised in this discussion is the rampant
> curiosity one can feel when in a situation like mine over the chagim: I
> always leave my answering machine on and when I got home from shul on
> first day Rosh Hashanah at 3 in the afternoon, my answering machine had
> a single message on it. Needless to say, one of my first acts after
> Havdalah was to listen to the message! (Which turned out to be from my
> bank...)

There was a discussion about this on SCJ a couple of weeks back. I do
recall somebody saying that his rabbi recommended turning off the
machine because the curiosity might ruin the Shabbat feeling.

OTOH, for people such as myself, who leave it on as a security measure
(aging parents, etc.), the suspense of being totally cut off might be
worse. If I come home from shul and the machine is blinking, I assume
that if it is important they will phone again, and forget about it. If I
am home when the phone rings, I listen to the message. If it is pikuach
nefesh I will pick it up, otherwise it can wait until after Shabbat.

Incidentally, not to start any flame wars here, but if it is permissable
to cook on Yom Tov, why wouldn't you play the answering machine on Yom

Shabbat shalom, gmar chatima tova, Hadass

Dr. Hadass Eviatar                              Email: <eviatar@...> 
National Research Council of Canada             Phone: (204) 984 - 4535
Institute for Biodiagnostics                    Fax:   (204) 984 - 5472
435 Ellice Avenue, Winnipeg, MB, R3B 1Y6        http://www.ibd.nrc.ca/~eviatar


From: Steve Gindi <steve@...>
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 1995 20:15:43 GMT
Subject: Fish and Milk

>From: Shmuel Himelstein <himelstein@...>
> I noticed today that a new product in Israel, tuna fish in yoghurt,
> carries a rabbinic endorsement, with the following comment (translated),
> "Dairy - for those who eat fish with milk."

The Chidah says that this Beit Yosef is a Taoot Sofer. (the publisher
made a mistake) In other words the word milk was swithced in place of
the word meat. Many Poskim say that even though this might be true we
should be strict with health laws.

Chacham Ovadiah Yosef, who should be healthy and live a long life, says
that certain 17th century doctors also felt that this is unhealthy for

A matter of correction Sepharadim are very strict with meat which must
be 100% Chalak. According to Bet Yosef we are much more strict than the
strictist "Glatt" kosher meat.

Tizku Leshanim Rabot,
Steve Gindi                             NetMedia (Home of Jerusalem One)
Tech Support                          ------------------------------------- 
<Steve@...>                  "Information at the Speed of Thought"
           Phone:  972-2-795-860          Fax:  972-2-793-524


From: <tekhelet@...> (Ari Greenspan)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 1995 21:58:36 GMT
Subject: Halachic Times

m-singer asked about the different shitot on when shabbat ends.The OU
calendar mentions shitat rabienu tam and the gaonim.  The machloket is
based upon an apparent contradiction between two passages shabbat 34,
and pesachim 94.  The definition of twilight "bien hashmashot"is a
period of time of either 3\4 of one mil(shabbat) or 3 1\4 mil
(pesachim).  The gaonim are of the opinion that bien hashmashot is 3\4
of a mil and rabienu tam feels that it is 3 1\4 mil after sunset.
      What is a mil?  There are three opinions as to the length of a mil,
all are based on various gemarot relating how many mil can be walked in a
certain period of time.  Rashi says a mil is 22.5 minutes, the Rambam says
it is 24 min. and the trumat hadeshen says that a mil is 18 min.   
        The length of time of twilight changes with latitude and season.
These above times apply only in Jerusalem on the day of the
equinox(grah).  Given that, how do the Jewish calendars figure the 3\4
or 3 1\4 mil times?  The answer is to figure the angle of depression of
the sun below the horizon in Jerusalem on the eqinox and then compute
the amount of time at a given latitude to reach the same degree of
depression.  In Dr. Leo Levi's Jewish Chrononomy he has shitat hagaonim
as 4.81 degress below the horizon and shitat Rabienu Tam as 16.1
degrees.  Many people talk about bien hashmashot as being 18 min long,
but that is only in Jerusalem and on the day of the equinox.
        An interesting aside is the opinion of Rav Elazar Memitz, who
understood the gemara in shabbat with its use of the word "mishetishka
hachama" instead of" misheshaka hachama" to mean that twilight begins
the prohibitions of shabbat would commence BEFORE sunset. While nobody
paskens like him it is the source of our minhag to light shabbat candles
18 min before sunset.
        Final note about using calendars: All listed times for cities
are calculated for a single specific latitude and longitude within that
city.  Many cities cover such expansive land areas that not every
location within the city will exactly correspond to the lat. and
long. used in the calculation.  That is why most calendars show + or - 2
        Ari Greenspan, POB 2233  Efrat Israel
        email: <tekhelet@...>


From: <JKaplan289@...> (Jay Kaplan)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 1995 10:32:09 -0400
Subject: Let Us Make Man

I would like to add one small thought to Shlomo Grafstein's beautiful
discussion of the problem of the plural US in Let Us make man(Mail Jewish

Rabbi Abraham Twerski brings a perhaps hassidic tam to this discussion
by explaining that the US is the partnership between God and man. We are
made incomplete. No other species on earth is as responsible for his own
development as man. A tiger is programmed to become a big tiger, to
hunt, to eat, to reproduce. But there is not self motivation to become a
better hunter. With man however, we were created with the ability to
make decisions about how we live, what we do and what we will leave

The creation of man is an on-going process, that God shares with the created.

A good year to all.

Jay Kaplan

From: <david@...> (David Charlap)
Date: Fri, 29 Sep 95 12:40:26 EDT
Subject: Let us make man

<RABIGRAF@...> (Shlomo Grafstein) writes:
>I teach a class in Chumash at Dalhousie University.  It is open to
>all.  Among the attendees is a Baptist Minister.  Last night he
>raised the old question of "gods" since the verse referring to HaShem is
>in the plural (Genesis 1:26) "let us make man in our image...."  Does 
>anyone on mail-Jewish have additional ideas besides the ones below:

[ideas ommitted].

I heard another idea.  That God was consulting with the angels (that
were created a few days before).  Why would God ask the angels (who have
no free will)?  To teach us a lesson.  That no matter how great you are
- whether you're a parent, a community leader, president, or king - you
should always act with humility and consult with others before making
major decisions.  The point is hammered home here when we see that even
God consulted with the angels before creating man (which was a very
major decision!)

We see this elsewhere as well.  For instance, God consulted with Abraham
before destroying S'dom and 'Amora.  We all know the story where Abraham
argues God down to "if there are 10 good people, the cities will not be
destroyed".  Certainly, God knew how everything was going to turn out,
but he consulted with Abraham anyway as a lesson for us.

Why mention God consulting with others in two different places?  Because
with only one, you might think that you should only consult with others
in matters of creation, or only in matters of destruction.  But we see
that God consulted with others in both creation (of man) and in
destruction (of S'dom).  How much more should we (as imperfect humans)
consult with others when we want to perform acts of creation and


From: Yehoshua Kohl <yoshikoh@...>
Date: Sun, 1 Oct 1995 06:32:54 GMT
Subject: Re: messianic Jews

> From: <loismi@...> (Lois Miller)
> My eldest daughter has converted to messianic judaism and lives in 
> San Diego, CA.  Her birthdat is Oct 3 and I am going out there to
> ...
> would allow us to attend services.  How can I find out?  And, also,
> who in NY can I speak to about how to handle this messianic
> problem?  I know there is an organization called Jews for Judaism
> located in Toronto, but thats too far away.  What can I do and whom
> can I call?  I am alone and have no one to advise me in this matter.
> I would appreciate anything anyone can do to help me .  Thank You!

        The organization, Jews for Judaism is based in Baltimore. The
name of the director is Mark Powers. I don't have their number but they
have a page on web. I think that it is in the jer1.co.il server but it
shouldn't be too hard to find. I actually think that they have a west
coast office.
        Additionally, you might try to contact one of the few orthodox
shuls in SD. The shul in the area of San Diego State University is
called Beth Jacob. There is also a shul near UCSD but I don't recal the
name. I have no doubt that the rabbi of Beth Jacob, Rabbi Langer, could
be of assistance.
        One other choice is to call the Orthodox Union office in Los
Angeles. The area code is 310 and I'm sure information has their number.
        Aside from all of that, the best path is always prayer. It is
the season for that..........With blessings of G'mar Chasima Tova to you
and your entire family...

Yehoshua Kohl
                           ^      <yoshikoh@...>      ^
                            ^       Jerusalem,Israel      ^

From: <nrose@...> (Norbert Rosenthal)
Date: Sun, 01 Oct 1995 11:57:07 -0500
Subject: messianic Jews

We recommend you contact the following:

Rabbi Boruch Lederman, director of the San Diego Torah Center 6421 Gary Ct.
San Diego ( 619) 286-SDTC.  He's a great guy involved in Jewish outreach and
a graduate of Chofetz Chaim of Forest Hills.

You could also contact Lubavitch Chabad of San Diego.  Rabbi
Fradkin(whom we don't know personally as we do Rabbi Lederman) is at
6115 Montezuma Rd.  S.D.CA.  (o) (619) 265-7700 and (r) (619) 286-1270.
Good Luck!

Both may have Yom Kippur services at their facilities and both should
have experience with the Messianic problem.  Have a Shana Tova!  

If you need someone to talk with in NYC prior to your departure we will get
you a name and phone no. at Chabad where we know they have a lot of
experience with the Messianists.

Norbert and Rosane Rosenthal.

Please give our regards to Susan Stern in the office at Touro.


From: <DFERLEGER@...> (David Ferleger)
Date: Sat, 30 Sep 1995 14:19:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Old Shas/Talmud from European Publisher

I hope this is OK to request help on here. 

A relative of mine from Leipzig Germany was a big publisher of Jewish
books before World War II, in the 30s and perhaps before. YONASSAN
FERLEGER and the publishing house published, for example, a Talmud and
siddurim and other things.  (Ferleger itself is from Verlag, for book

I'm looking for leads to booksellers or collectors or just people who
might have anything publshed by Yonassan (Jonathan) Ferleger publisher.

I'm David Ferleger, mid-40s/ lawyer/ philadelphia and would be happy for
any help anyone has.


David Ferleger


From: Shmuel Himelstein <himelstein@...>
Date: Sun, 1 Oct 1995 05:58:24 GMT
Subject: Origin of the name Charlap

The origin of the name Charlap is indeed an acronym, standing for
"Chiya, Rosh Legalil Polin," based on a tradition that the family is
descended from a certain Chiya, who was the head of the Polish province.

[Similar response sent in by:
Dov Samet <SAMET@...>	Mod.]

           Shmuel Himelstein
22 Shear Yashuv Street, Jerusalem 97280, Israel
    Phone: 972-2-864712: Fax: 972-2-862041
   EMail address: <himelstein@...>


From: Aryeh Frimer <F66235%<BARILAN.bitnet@...>
Date: Sun, 01 Oct 95 09:41 O
Subject: Women and Zimmun - update

    Regarding the question of a zimmun where three women ate with less
than three men:
    I have already noted that Rav Shlomoh Zalman Auerbach (quoted by his
nephew in Halikhot Beitah; confirmed by Rabbi Shlomoh Pick in a personal
conversation Halakha le-Ma'aseh with the Grashaz) zatsal ruled that the
women can have a zimmun and the men should answer normally. Rabbi Shlomo
Pick transmitted to me that Rav Elyashiv Shlita also concurred. My
Brother Rabbi Dov Frimer recently discussed the matter with Rav Aharon
Lichtenstien Shlita who also said the men should answer. By "answer" I
mean: "Barukh she-akhalnu mishelo..."  In a previous posting on this
issue I indicated that the "Rov" zatsal in his Shiurim on Sukkah seems
to suggest that men cannot answer.  Rav Aharon, however, disagreed with
this understanding of Rav Soloveitchiks words - arguing that the Rov
held that the men are not PART of the zimmun in order for the leader to
be "motzi" them. However, they can answer as "outsiders" and since they
ate can answer: "barukh she-akhalnu mi-shelo..."
       On the other hand, Rav Dovid Cohen Shlita (of Gvul Ya'avetz
Brookly) and Rav Dovid Feinstein Shlita (MTJ) both indicate that the men
can answer as outsiders "Barukh u-mevorach shmo tamid le-olam va'ed",
which is what one answers to a zimmun if he didn't eat bread or cake,
hence also outsiders. Neither was opposed to the men being present.
       All this, of course, runs counter to the common misconception
that if men are present that the women can't have a zimmun unless the
men walk out.


End of Volume 21 Issue 59