Volume 21 Number 61
                       Produced: Thu Oct  5 23:58:50 1995

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Aleynu Melodies
         [Jeff Finger]
Answering Machine on Shabbat
         [Aliza Weinberg]
Answering Machines and Yom Tov
         [Rena Freedenberg]
Answering machines on Yom Tov
         [Jan David Meisler]
Ben Hashmoshot, Second Day
         [Al Silberman]
         [Elozor Preil]
Electronics & Shabbat Stoves (fwd)
         [Daniel N Weber]
Food Processor on Yom Tov
         [Avi Feldblum]
Jews for Judaism Web Site
         [Susan Zakar]
messianic Judaism
         [Ian A. Kellman]
Messianic Judaism
         [Zvi Weiss]
Rav Elazar Memetz and Bien Hashmashot
         [Ari Greenspan]
Tobbaco and Halacha
         [Dave Curwin]


From: <jfinger@...> (Jeff Finger)
Date: Tue, 03 Oct 1995 08:33:08 PDT
Subject: Aleynu Melodies

1. Does anyone know the origin and age of the melody that is so commonly
   sung in the U.S. synagogues for "alaynu"? 

2. At "she'hu note shamayim" after "va'anakhnu kor'im", people switch to
   another melody that fits very poorly with the words, making me think 
   that it goes with some other words. Any info here on the origin and 
   age of this second melody?

Gmar khatima tova,
Itzhak "Jeff" Finger


From: <CSALIZA@...> (Aliza Weinberg)
Date: Mon, 2 Oct 95 14:34:19 +02
Subject: Answering Machine on Shabbat

In answer and comment to the Answering Machine Question:

I have a machine and leave it on. I won't touch it during Shabbat but I
do listen to all incoming message because I have children living abroad
and my husband also lives abroad as do the rest of my immediate
family. I am grateful for the technology because it allows me to know if
its am emergency or not.

I recommend leaving it on as long as one doesn't touch it but can listen
to messages. Its no different than passing someone in the street and
hearing msgs passed on by mouth that way.

G'Mar Hatima Tova to all

Aliza Weinberg
e-mail: <CSALIZA@...>


From: Rena Freedenberg <mark@...>
Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 21:44:31 +0300 (WET)
Subject: Answering Machines and Yom Tov

This is in response to Hadass Eviatar, who wrote (in part):

> Incidentally, not to start any flame wars here, but if it is permissable
> to cook on Yom Tov, why wouldn't you play the answering machine on Yom
> Tov?

Cooking and listening to answering machines are two different things.  
The only melachas that we are allowed to perform on Yom Tov that we 
cannot perform on Shabbos are carrying and cooking.  We are forbidden to 
perform all other melacha on Yom Tov that is forbidden on Shabbos.  
Listening to an answering machine on Shabbos or Yom Tov would be comparable to
cutting on a lamp or turning on the radio or making a phone call; all of these
are assur (forbidden).  This is a quick, simplified answer; for a more 
complete discussion of things forbidden on Yom Tov (and Shabbos) there is 
a very good English language source written by Rav Fuchs called "Halichos 
Bas Yisroel", published by Targum Press.

Gamar Chatima Tovah
Rena Freedenberg


From: Jan David Meisler <jm8o+@andrew.cmu.edu>
Date: Mon,  2 Oct 1995 13:06:53 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Answering machines on Yom Tov

The question was asked recently -- if cooking is permitted on Yom Tov,
then why not playing with answering machines.  I don't see the
connection.  We are permitted to cook on yom tov because of Ochel Nefesh
(loosely translated as food for the soul).  This is the same permission
that allows us to wash in in warm water on yom tov (hands, face, etc.).
However, I don't see why the answering machine should be permitted under
those reasons.  It is forbidden as is performing other melachos are.



From: <asilberman@...> (Al Silberman)
Date: Thu, 5 Oct 1995 09:55:19 -0500
Subject: Ben Hashmoshot, Second Day

I would like to address this very complex and much discussed subject
with what I can only hope is an adequate summary of the issues involved
(to the best of my understanding).

1.      There is "universal" agreement on the following two statements
based on the Talmud:
        A. Ben Hashmoshot is the duration of 3/4 MIL.
        B. There is a "nightfall" that begins 4 MIL after sunset.

2.      These two statements are inherently in conflict and the resolution
takes one of two paths:
        A. There are 2 different "nightfalls" under discussion;
        B. There are two different "sunsets".

3.      There are three basically different approaches:
        A. Ben Hashmoshot takes place immediately preceding sunset with
sunset being the first nightfall. There is a second nightfall "4 MIL"
later. This is the view of the Yereim (R'Eliezer of Metz c.1175).
        B. Ben Hashmoshot starts at sunset, ends 3/4 MIL thereafter with
the first nightfall. There is a second nightfall 3 and 1/4 MIL thereafter.
This is the view of the GRA and most Poskim.
        C.Ben Hashmoshot starts 3 and 1/4 MIL after the first sunset. This
is considered the second sunset (legally DAY until then). Nightfall occurs
3/4 MIL later.This is the view of the Rabbeinu Tam and others.

4.      There are three opinions on the duration of a MIL (i.e. 18 minutes,
22.5 minutes and 24 minutes). This translates into three opinions on the
duration of Ben Hashmoshot; 13.5 minutes, 16 minutes 53 seconds and 18

5.      There is a dispute as to whether these times are based on fixed
hours or seasonal hours (varying with season and latitude). If it is
seasonal then the above given times are based on Jerusalem at the time of
the vernal equinox.

6.      The 18 minutes prior to sunset which a majority of people use for
candle lighting takes into consideration the view of the Yereim based on a
24 Minute MIL without adding seasonal considerations. There are some who
add seasonal considerations as well.

7.      The majority follows the GRA's view for the end of Shabbos, adding
however, seasonal considerations. The latest ZMAN used is based on the
Rabbeinu TAM together with seasonal considerations. This time comes to 90

8.      There is no equivalent to Ben Hashmoshot in the morning. Therefore
daybreak is defined as either 72 or 90 minutes prior to sunrise.

Each point above lends itself to many questions and debate.This is a
simplified but I hope adequate summary of the issues involved.

Subject: Second Day

In paragraph 2 of Mechy Frankel's statement he mentions the practice of
one day RH in Israel up to the time of the Rishonim. This discussion can
be found in the Baal Hamoar on the RIF in the first perek of Bezah (Daf
Gimmel in the standard editions), with a corresponding (obligatory?)
response in the Milchamos.


From: <EMPreil@...> (Elozor Preil)
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 00:52:48 -0400
Subject: Charlop

I consuted with Rabbi Yaakov Neuburger, whose wife (Peshi) is a Charlop.  He
said it is an abbreviation for:
     "Chacham roshi l'Yehudei Polanya" - Greatest scholar for the Jews of

Elozor Preil


From: Daniel N Weber <dweber@...>
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 10:46:11 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Electronics & Shabbat Stoves (fwd)

It was either on this list or another one but I remember this topic
being discussed once before but it was not immediately relevant to me at
the time.  However, due to a major reconstruction of our house (no, that
does not make me a reconstructionist Jew!), and the purchase of new
appliances, we are now facing the unforeseen problem of computer-driven
stoves.  With our old manually-operated stoves, we could keep the oven
on for all of Shabbat or all of a 2-day Yom Tov.  When purchasing our
new stove, it did not occur to us that this would be impossible with the
modern models.  These models are required to have a 12-hour shut-off,
i.e. if you leave the oven on for more than 12 hours, the stove
automatically turns-off.  The Maytag people, from whom we purchased our
unit, said that this feature 1) is a safety feature and 2) cannot be
overridden.  Additionally, if we use the timer, this particular model
will beep for 25 minutes once the timed-bake is completed--a BIG problem
during a Shabbat meal!

My question is two-fold: 1) Does anyone know how to solve this problem
without returning the oven and getting a new one and 2) has anyone heard
of the Amana "Shabbos oven" as written about in (I think) Moment
magazine--the oven turns itself on every hour to maintain a constant,
low temperature?

As I said, it never occurred to us that we wouldn't be able to keep our
oven on all the time so we never asked about it at the store.  Your help
will be appreciated!!!

Dan Weber


From: Avi Feldblum <feldblum@...>
Date: Mon, 2 Oct 1995 21:48:58 -0400
Subject: Re: Food Processor on Yom Tov

Jan David Meisler writes:
> The question was asked recently -- if cooking is permitted on Yom Tov,
> then why not playing with answering machines.  I don't see the
> connection.  We are permitted to cook on yom tov because of Ochel Nefesh
> (loosely translated as food for the soul).  This is the same permission
> that allows us to wash in in warm water on yom tov (hands, face, etc.).
> However, I don't see why the answering machine should be permitted under
> those reasons.  It is forbidden as is performing other melachos are.

That makes perfect sense to me. What is not at all clear to me is why it
is not permitted to use my food processor (or mixer, etc) on Yom
Tov. This is clearly Tzorech Ochel Nefesh (what is needed to prepare
food for a person [I do not think I would translate nefesh as soul here,
we are talking about physical food]). The exact nature of the Issur even
without the issue of Ochel Nefesh is not all that clear. Yet there
appears to be uniform agreement that I cannot prepare much of what I
would like to make on Yom Tov if it involves electric appliances.


Avi Feldblum
<mljewish@...> or feldblum@cnj.digex.net


From: <suezakar@...> (Susan Zakar)
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 09:28:19 -0500
Subject: Jews for Judaism Web Site

Jews for Judaism has a web site on Shamash now. In addition to info for
contacting the various offices, it also offers a number of documents that
deal with refuting missionary approaches, stories from people who have been
involved, etc.

The URL is:



From: Ian A. Kellman <kellman@...>
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 00:20:05 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: messianic Judaism

Rabbi Tovia Singer can be reached at:
   Outreach Judaism
   PO box 789
   Monsey, NY 10952

Outreach Judaism also produces a very informative set of cassettes which 
describe the activities of the messianic judaism movement and educates in 
the knowledge needed to counter the movement and its beliefs.  I highly 
recommend it.

Shana tova and g'mar chasima tova to all
Ian A. Kellman, M.D.

From: Zvi Weiss <weissz@...>
Date: Tue, 3 Oct 1995 10:47:41 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Messianic Judaism

While no longer actively involved in Messianic cult stuff, a good source 
for this lady to contact would be Rabbi Shia Hecht (718-735-0213) NCFJE.  
He may have additional ideas/contacts.

G'mar Chatima Tova.



From: <tekhelet@...> (Ari Greenspan)
Date: Wed, 4 Oct 1995 21:20:14 GMT
Subject: Rav Elazar Memetz and Bien Hashmashot

David Meisler had 2 questions 
        Who is Rav Elazar Memetz? He was a student of Rabienu Tam and the
author of Sefer Yereim. He lived around the year 1170. He felt that
immediately after sunset was night and that Bien Hashmashot was the 3/4 of a
mil BEFORE sunset. Sefer Minchat Cohen on the topic of Bien Hashmashot,
printed in Lemberg about 120 years ago brings his opinion and says
a) according to him one would have to add a bit more than 3\4 of a mil in
order to fulfill tosefet shabbat B) according to him, shabbat is over with
sunset, even so he would be machmir like the gaonim and wait 3\4 of a mil
after sunset to do work.
        What is the length of Bien Hashmashot? The Gra says that all
shiurim mentioned in the gemara for Bien Hashmashot are only in Eretz
Yisrael and on the day of the equinox. It was clear to him that in the
northern latitudes Bien Hashmashot was longer than that of the southern
latitudes and changed with the season. If we take the opinion of the Rambam
that the time that it takes to walk a mil is 24 minutes then the time of
Bien Hashmashot (3\4 of a mil ) is 18 minutes in Israel on the day of the
eqinox. Looking on Leo Levis calander under the opinion of the gaonim we see
sunset on the sept 22 (he doesnt print every day so I took the day after the
equinox)  is 5:37 and Tziet Hakochavim is 5:55 meaning Bien Hashmashot is
18 minutes. Looking at Dublin which is much further north than jerusalem we
see Bien Hashmashot as 24 minutes on the same day.


From: Dave Curwin <6524dcurw@...>
Date: Tue, 03 Oct 1995 11:14:23 EST
Subject: Re: Tobbaco and Halacha

Moshe Montgomery (<st94zwy9@...>) wrote: 

>Does anybody know of any halachic sources for or against the use of
>tobacco (ie; smoking, etc)?

There is a great booklet that describes the halachic background
and prolbems with smoking and tobacco. It is called:
"Smoking and Damage to Health in the Halachah"
by Rabbi Menachem Slae
Acharai Publications
Jerusalem 5750 (1990)

I am not sure how available it is now. I found a copy a few months
ago in the Israel Bookstore in Boston. The authors address is 
printed as:
8 HaNevel St., Jerusalem, Israel 97500  Tel. 02-289755
and the address of Acharai Publications is:
D. Fielder, 5 HaTalmid St., Jerusalem 97500

It really covers the subject very completely. 

David Curwin		With wife Toby, Shaliach to Boston, MA
904 Centre St.          List Owner of B-AKIVA on Jerusalem One
Newton, MA 02159                   <6524dcurw@...>
617 527 0977          Why are we here? "L'hafitz Tora V'Avoda"


End of Volume 21 Issue 61