Volume 21 Number 75
                       Produced: Tue Oct 31 23:37:23 1995

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Kraft Cheese
         [Tova Osofsky]
Lashon Hara
         [Yeshaya Halevi]
Rabinically Endorsed Schach
         [Carl Sherer]
Religious Library Management Software
         [Israel A. Wagner]
         [Roger Kingsley]
Rov Anecdote
         [Michael Muschel]
Ten for a Zimun
         [Rose Landowne]
The laws governing interest
         [Israel Rosenfeld]
The Weight of Noah's Ark
         [Richard Schiffmiller]
Tosefes Shabbos
         [Carl Sherer]
Waiting in Galitzia
         [M E Lando]
Young people receiving Aliyot
         [Steve Gindi]


From: Tova Osofsky <aronb@...>
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 09:01:08 +0200 (IST)
Subject: Kraft Cheese

About all the Kraft cheese mail - I recently worked for Kraft and did a
very little bit of investigating.

There is definitely no mashgiach on the premises, all though most (not
necessarily all) of the cheese they make is with synthetic rennet.
Moreover, they buy cheese on the open market to compensate for high
demand or underproduction, so there is little control or ability to
depend on Kraft.

Finally, some sorts of cheese, like parmesan and Romano are often bought
on the international market, making it even harder to know what you are
getting.  The company no longer represents their product as kosher.

A final note - they pay real close attention to the consumer request
lines.  Therefore, if they got a large and sustained influx of calls
requesting kosher cheese, there is a chance that they would at least
evaluate the economics of producing kosher cheese.  Given the price
difference between Kraft and most Kosher cheese, I would say we should
go for it.

Tova Osofsky


From: <CHIHAL@...> (Yeshaya Halevi)
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 12:12:38 -0500
Subject: Re: Lashon Hara

Shalom, All:
       Here's a 90s question:
       Is it lashon hara to say something nasty about someone online who is
identified only by his or her screen name; i.e. there is no other
identification of that individual's real name?
   <Chihal@...> [Yeshaya Halevi]


From: <adina@...> (Carl Sherer)
Date: Thu, 26 Oct 95 0:01:25 IDT
Subject: Rabinically Endorsed Schach

Shmuel Himelstein writes (regarding unusual hechsherim):

> One I noticed in Israel is for S'chach, made of thin wooden planks tied
> with string, which rolls up like a mat. Some of these carry the rabbinic
> endorsement (complete with seal) of various rabbis.
> In case anyone wonders why this is necessary, the point is that anything
> used as a utensil may not be used as S'chach, and thus a standard woven
> mat cannot be used. This endorsement indicates that this matting was
> made specifically not as a utensil but as S'chach, and is thus
> permitted.

I actually heard another reason why the "schach keinis muchan" (the most
commonly sold mats here) are preferred for your Succa.  According to one
of my neighbors this schach (unlike the others) is tied together with
flax rather than with regular string and therefore *no* part of the
schach is something other than gedulei karka (something which grew from
the ground).

-- Carl Sherer
	Adina and Carl Sherer
		You can reach us both at:


From: Israel A. Wagner <israelw@...>
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 95 10:25:44 IST
Subject: Religious Library Management Software

 Is anyone aware of a reasonable PC software that can help a Jewish
scholar to manage his medium-size (~7000 books) library ?  (Clearly it
should enable hebrew titles and judaica-oriented catalogue).

 Israel Wagner


From: Roger Kingsley <rogerk@...>
Date: Wed, 01 Nov 95 02:03:03 +0200 (IST)
Subject: Ribit

Shmuel Himelstein wrote in issue #74:

> Two nights ago, I had to print up a major job. As luck would have
> it, I ran out of paper just as I got toward the end of the job. B"H I
> had a friend bring me a batch of paper to Shul the next morning,  
> so I was able to get the printing out job out early that day.

> Now the question - my friend brought me - let's say - an inch or so 
> in thickness of paper. I want to repay him, but have no idea 
> exactly how much he gave me. Can I give him an approximation? 
> If it's more than he gave me, is this Ribit - interest? 

 Surely, if you make the best possible estimation, so that it is neither
k'rov l'schar or k'rov l'hefsed (closer to profit or to loss), this
could never fall into *any* category of ribit.  The laws of ribit are
not formulated to complicate cases of genuine uncertainty; merely to
stop people using cases of partial uncertainty to get round the original
 Indeed, it seems to me that, if the transaction had been so formulated
from the outset, there would have been no halachic objection to your
friend making a small profit on the exchange, by charging slightly more
than the market price for the paper in return for the service of
bringing it to you at an anusual time (as long as the mark-up was less
than one sixth and so not ona'a).  This may be less than friendly, but
not prohibited.

Roger Kingsley


From: <LMuschel@...> (Michael Muschel)
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 23:24:51 -0500
Subject: Rov Anecdote

Dave Curwin asks re: a wedding that both R. Moshe zt'l and the Rov zt'l
attended.  I believe the anecdote he seeks is the oft-quoted story
described in the OU publication Mesorah Vol.8 , p. 54. A student honored
the Rav with the kibbud of being mesader kiddushin. As the Rov was
performing the ceremony, he poured the wine for the bracha of kiddushin
but then publicly invited R. Moshe to the chuppah to recite the
bracha. The Rov then gave the chassan and kallah the wine to drink.When
asked how he could ostensibly forego the task he had accepted, the Rov
replied that, quite to the contrary, siddur kiddushin charges him with
using his discretion and judgment in conducting and overseeing the
entire kiddushin procedure and in fact he had done just that - he had
poured the wine, supervised the chassan and kallah drinking, and had
used his perogative in honoring R. Moshe to make the bracha thereby
allowing the Rov to carry out his assignment.

Michael Muschel


From: <ROSELANDOW@...> (Rose Landowne)
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 13:52:12 -0500
Subject: Ten for a Zimun

"My understanding is that our addition of "Elokenu" when a minyan
bentshes together requires a minyan -- ten adult men -- and that a large
group of women making a zimun does not add "Elokenu."  I can stand a
source on that, or correction if I am mistaken.
Steve White"

In answer to Steve White's request for a source, In Brachot 45 b, the
Gemara states that 100 women, in relation to zimun, are the equivalent
of 2 men.  This is used to indicate that while women do not have the
obligation to make a zimun, they have the option to if they so desire.

By the way, I was at a luncheon last week where there were five men
present, none of whom had washed, and many women.  Rabbi Riskin insisted
that the women make a zimun, and the men answered.
 Rose Landowne


From: <iir@...> (Israel Rosenfeld)
Date: Tue,  31 Oct 95 12:07 +0200
Subject: Re:  The laws governing interest

>Two nights ago (YomTov for you in Chutz La'araetz), I had to print up a
>major job. As luck would have it, I ran out of paper just as I got
>toward the end of the job. B"H I had a friend bring me a batch of paper
>to Shul the next morning, so I was able to get the printing out job out
>early that day.
>Now the question - my friend brought me - let's say - an inch or so in
>thickness of paper. I want to repay him, but have no idea exactly how
>much he gave me. Can I give him an approximation? If it's more than he
>gave me, is this Ribit - interest? Can I give him an approximate amount
>with the stipulation that whoever came out on the raw end of the deal
>forgos the difference?

The accepted custom in Jerusalem amongst neighbors is to make
   an explicit agreement that all inaccuracies in borrowing
   (e.g. returning too much/too little sugar, etc.) are considered presents.
But there we are giving/returning the objects.

I think your question is one of Onaah - over/under charging.
IMHO, agreeing on a price should suffice.



From: <rschiffmiller@...> (Richard Schiffmiller)
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 09:23:55 -0500
Subject: The Weight of Noah's Ark

        One may easily estimate the weight of Noah's Ark fully loaded by
using Archimedes' Principle and some information in Rashi to B'reishit
8-4.  Rashi declares that the Ark floated with 11 amot of its hull
submerged under water.  He gets this from the text.  The waters reached
a peak above land of 15 amot on the first of Sivan, when they began to
recede.  The recession continued for two months, since land was
uncovered on the first of Av, sixty days later.  Assuming a linear drop
in height of the water, the rate is one amah every four days.  In
Chapter 8 verse 4, the Torah says that the Ark rested on Mt. Ararat on
the 17th of Sivan, that is, after 16 days of the water level falling.
Since the water level dropped only four amot in that time and it began
at 15 amot above the mountain, the Ark must have had 11 amot of its hull
under water.

        According to Archimedes' Principle, the weight of an object
floating in water is equal to the weight of the water displaced by the
object.  Weight of an object is equal to its mass times the acceleration
due to gravity.  The latter is the same for the Ark and the water, and
so it cancels out of the equation.  Thus the mass of Ark equals the
density of the water (1000 kg/m3 for rain water) times the volume of the
water displaced, which is the length of the Ark (300 amot, or ca. 150
meters) times the width (50 amot, or ca. 25 meters) times the depth (11
amot, or ca. 5.5 meters).  The mass of the Ark is then 20,625,000 kg.,
which weighs 45,375,000 lbs. or 22687.5 tons.

        By way of comparison, the largest ships on the seas today are
oil tankers, which weigh around 75,000 tons.  According to Jane's
Fighting Ships, aircraft carriers fully loaded weigh about 22,000 tons.
Cruisers weigh in at about 14,000 tons and destroyers at 11,000 tons.
Of course, these are all made of steel and not wood, as was the Ark.  I
guess the conclusion is that the Ark was, by the standards of the
ancient world, a huge ship.

Richie Schiffmiller


From: <adina@...> (Carl Sherer)
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 95 23:39:23 IDT
Subject: Tosefes Shabbos

Elie Rosenfeld writes (in part):

> family.  There are many views of the latest possible time given by
> various authorities, as our recent discussion has shown.  (However, the
> discussion still leaves me confused as to where the prevalent "42
> minute" minhag comes from; a minhag which many, if not most Orthodox
> communities seem to hold.  It is certainly the nearly universal time
> printed on calendars!)

42 minutes may be universal in America but it is certainly not here in
Israel.  We generally have two times printed on the calendar - one is
generally about 32-33 minutes after shkia (sunset) and the other is
given as Rabbeinu Tam and is 72 minutes after shkia.  This leads me to
think that both the 32 and the 42 have a basis (especially since the 32
actually gets closer to 40 in the summer).

> 3) Both the 18 minutes for candle-lighting and bein hashmashos have
> nothing whatsoever to do with "tosephes Shabbos", the obligation to
> start Shabbos a little "early" and end it a little "late".  There is no
> lower limit for tosephes Shabbos; a millisecond before sunset suffices.
> The 18 minutes for candle lighting is emphatically _not_ binding as the
> start of Shabbos on anyone but the one lighting candles her/himself.* In
> fact, in most Jewish communities, Mincha on Friday afternoon is started
> fewer than 18 minutes before sunset, with people still driving to shul,
> etc.  I think I can say with confidence that I personally have never
> started Shabbos even close to 18 minutes early, and, in fact, have often
> pushed the millisecond lower limit for tosephes Shabbos!

While this is technically correct, if you 'd like to see a fascinating
tshuva on this subject from Rav Moshe Feinstein zt"l I'd suggest you
look at Iggros Moshe OH Vol.1 #96 (the tshuva was pointed out to me by
Rav Meir Stern shlita - the Rosh Yeshiva in Passaic).

-- Carl Sherer
	Adina and Carl Sherer
		You can reach us both at:


From: M E Lando <landom1@...>
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 13:23:45 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Waiting in Galitzia

Simmy Fleischer asked about the minhag in Strusev, Galitzia for waiting
between meat and milk.  Our families came from Z'borov (Roth), N'rai'ev
(Pizem and Dicker) and Jeh'leen (Fensterheim) all in Galitzia.  They all
waited 6 hours.

Unless Simmy has reason to assume that Stusev had unique minhagim, it is 
probably safe to assume they waited 6 hours.

Mordechai E. Lando ha'm'chu'na Yukum


From: Steve Gindi <steve@...>
Date: Tue, 31 Oct 1995 20:38:29 GMT
Subject: Re: Young people receiving Aliyot

According to the Mishna and Certain Sephardic Communities even a small child
can have an Aliyah. (BTW the Mishnah also mention Women and Slaves) This
refers to all year long not neccessarily Rosh Hashana


>> A question has arisen in our shule as to whether it is halachically
>> appropriate to call a young unmarried boy to the Torah on Rosh Hashonah
>> or Yom Kippur. Some people feel that this great honor should be reserved
>> for the elder men of the kehilah, (or at least married men), and others
>> feel that any male over bar mitzvah has the right to receive an
>> aliya. Is this indeed a halachic issue, or a minhag?

Steve Gindi                             NetMedia (Home of Jerusalem One)
Tech Support                          ------------------------------------- 
<Steve@...>                  "Information at the Speed of Thought"
           Phone:  972-2-795-860          Fax:  972-2-793-524


End of Volume 21 Issue 75