Volume 21 Number 87
                       Produced: Wed Nov  8 23:56:14 1995

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Black Clothing
         [Mechael Kanovsky]
Bracha on Seeing a Secular Scholar
         [Warren Burstein]
         [Yitzchok D. Frankel]
Information needed on Victor Herbert
         [Bill Hatherley]
Jewish Calendar
         [Mottel Gutnick]
Kashrus of Shellac
         [Reuven Werber]
More tunes
         [Barry Graham]
Motzei Shabos Quick Minyan
NO Interest Unless Related to Money
         [Roger Kingsley]
Permitted Melacha on Yom Tov
         [Moshe Freedenberg]
Sources for Black Hat
         [Carl Sherer]
Southern Comfort (once again)
         [Lon Eisenberg]
         [Michael E. Beer]
Women and Zimmun
         [Israel Botnick]


From: <KANOVSKY@...> (Mechael Kanovsky)
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 1995 11:42:13 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Black Clothing

Also from the talmudic passages that have to do with black clothing is
the one from the famous story of the "tanur shel achnai" (a name of a 
certain utensil).
	The story goes as following, there was an argument between Rav 
Elazar Hagadol and the chachamim about the above mentioned tanur, 
whether it could get unpure (tameh) or not. Rav Elazar hagadol made a whole
bunch of miracles happen in order to prove his point and the chachamim were
not impressed and they did not change their veiw. When Rav Elazar Hagadol 
did not change his mind the chachamim put him in cherem. The problem was
who would go tell him theat he is indeed in cherem? Rabbi Akiva said that
he will go and tell him and the way that he did it was to dress in black
(lavash shechorim vehit'atef be'shchorim) and when Rabbbi Elazar Hagadol
saw him he realized that he was put in cherem. Therefore one must conclude
that their normal attire was not black.

mechael kanovsky


From: <warren@...> (Warren Burstein)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 1995 16:31:42 GMT
Subject: Re: Bracha on Seeing a Secular Scholar

>2. If one sees four consecutive such persons, does one make the bracha
>four times, or once for the group, having in mind also those to speak

While we're at it, what are the criteria for saying the bracha to be
said when seeing a king?  Is it said when seeing a ruling queen?  Upon a
monarch whose authority is limited by an elected body?  Perhaps upon
seeing an elected head of state?

This has been on my mind, as a number of monarchs and other heads of
state were in Israel yesterday, although I did not see any in person.

 |warren@         an Anglo-Saxon." -- Stuart Schoffman
/ nysernet.org


From: <Ydfrankel@...> (Yitzchok D. Frankel)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 1995 00:14:57 -0500
Subject: Hotplate

>A Rav where I live has told me that I am allowed to put cooked food not
>in liquid on the hot plate during shabbat.
> From what I understand from reading Shmirat Shabbat K'hilchata (SSK), I
>should not be allowed to do this. As I understand it I could put any
>cooked food on the hot plate BEFORE Shabbat started, but not after.
>Can someone please let me know if my understanding of SSK is correct.

Your Rav is correct. 
The issur of returning to the hotplate doesn't apply because one does not use
hotplates for cooking (ever) only for keeping items warm after the food has
been cooked. It would be asur to return the dry item to a primary cooking
source ( the blech)

Yitzchok D. Frankel
Long Beach, NY


From: <bhatherl@...> (Bill Hatherley)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 1995 20:05:27 -0500
Subject: Information needed on Victor Herbert

We have adopted two children who have converted to Judaism.  We recently
found out that they are related to the composer, Victor Herbert who
wrote "Babes in Toyland" and "Fantasia".  We know he lived in Germany in
the late 1800's and early 1900's.  QUESTION: Was Victor Herbert Jewish?
Any information about him would be most helpful.


From: Mottel Gutnick <MOTTEL@...>
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 1995 14:03:38 GMT+1000
Subject: Jewish Calendar

Greetings from Melbourne, Australia. My name is Mottel Gutnick. I am
writing a paper on the Jewish Calendar - not for any academic
accreditation purposes, but out of personal interest - and I am looking
for someone with whom I can discuss, via Email, issues arising from my
research in this field and from whom I can invite critical comment on
extracts from my article.

I would be interested to hear from anyone:

  - with specialised knowledge in this field,
  - who has recently studied or is familiar with tractate Rosh Hashana
    or the sugya in Sanhedrin (10b-13b) on intercalation, or similar
    matters from other parts of the Talmud,
  - who has any articles discussing ancient (pre Talmudic and pre 2nd-
    Temple-Era) forms of the Jewish calendar and its regulation.

Any takers? If so, I would very much appreciate hearing from you.

Mottel Gutnick         <mottel@...>


From: Reuven Werber <reuw@...>
Date: Tue,  7 Nov 95 21:02 +0300
Subject: Kashrus of Shellac

>From: Moshe Rappoport <mer@...>
>If you look at the labels on the wooden cartons that are used for fresh
>fruits in the USA, you will see that certain fruits are coated with
>shellac. (I think there is some new legal labeling law which requires
>the packers to list all the ingredients.)
>If this shellac is indeed made from beetles raised expressly for this
>purpose (the insects have a waxy covering that makes them waterproof),
>the fruits must, according to some Rabbonim, be cleansed with a scouring
>agent before consumption.
>For some reason, this issue has not received much public notice.
>I too would be interested in knowing, whether there are Poskim who rule
>that the fruits can be eaten as is.

Dear Moshe,

I spoke about your question with Rav Zev Weitman, Rav of Tnuva in Israel.
He dealt with this problem & on the basis of the Psak of Rav Moshe
Feinstein, Yoreh Deah II, Siman 24 he permitted the use of shellac on
fruits & it's consumption. I might be able to get additional material
on this problem if you are interested.

Reuven Werber
Kibbutz Kfar Etzion, D.N. Tzfon Yehuda, Israel 90912
Phone 02-9935180, Fax   02-9935288
email - <REUW@...>


From: Barry Graham <74741.2331@...>
Date: 07 Nov 95 19:14:32 EST
Subject: More tunes

I always wondered how it can be that the tune I sing for haphtaras, very
popular in the UK (or at least in London), is rarely heard or recognized
or known in the USA, even though the notes are shown at the back of the
blue Chumash used in many USA shuls.

Does anyone know where the notes in this Chumash originate from?



From: crp_chips <chips@...>
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 1995 15:55:44 -0800
Subject: Motzei Shabos Quick Minyan

 From: Jay Denkberg <73472.2162@...>
> I know you can not prepare on Shabbat for after Shabbat.  However, 
> is one allowed to carry (within an eruv, of course) a siddur to shul 
> for the sole pupose of davening Motzei Shabbat Maariv only.  Mincha 
> was already said earlier in the day.
> To add to the problem (perhaps) this is an "early" minyan that 
> davens exactly as shabbat ends, so you have to get to shul before 
> shabbat ends. The shul does not have it's own siddurim. (actually 
> its not even a shul it's a street corner, but that's another story)

Ahh, sounds like my old days in Boro Park and the minyan at the corner
of 14th & 45, literally. At the very second that 42minutes was reached
`Barchu` was said under a street lamp by a newspaper box. `Shimona
Esreh` was started about 2 minutes later and `Oleinu` was done by the
time they started davening inside the shul. Yes, this minyan took place
right outside the doors of a regular shul.

Anyway, here the sidur problem was pronounced - there was no `eiruv` to
allow bringing a sidur at all, and if you said `Baruch Hamavdil` you
missed the minyan!

As i recall, the problem was " solved " by bringing in the siddur from
inside but not walking `Daled Amos`. This of course, led to a crush next
to the door.

Does this minyan still exist?


From: Roger Kingsley <rogerk@...>
Date: Tue, 07 Nov 95 21:11:23 +0200 (IST)
Subject: RE: NO Interest Unless Related to Money

  A correspondent in #83 suggested that ribit only relates to a monetary
transaction.  I fear that this one won't fly.  See Devarim, 23, 20:
"neshekh kesef, neshekh ochel, neshekh kol davar".
  The example of the cassette recorder is interesting.  In modern Ivrit,
there is a clear distinction between a "halva'a" which is a loan which
can be paid back by a different example of the same commodity (a sum of
money, a loaf of bread, a bag of sugar etc.)  and a "sha'ala" where the
borrower is expected to return precisely the same *item* he received.  I
have assumed that the same distinction applies in halacha, where
different sets of halachot apply, but cannot immediately prove this.

Roger Kingsley


From: Moshe Freedenberg <mark@...>
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 20:30:50 +0300 (WET)
Subject: Permitted Melacha on Yom Tov

> <Gevaryahu@...> (Gilad J. Gevaryahu) writes:
> >What about smoking? It is not carrying and it is not cooking.
> >("Le'havdil...", only the Muslims hold that smoking is tantamount to
> >food and thus prohibited during the fast of Ramadan). Is it because
> >people used to chew and smell tobacco?

Smoking falls under the melacha of cooking, I believe, because one
lights a fire to cook; it has absolutely nothing to do with tobacco
being considered a food.  One must light the cigarette from a
pre-existing flame or already lit cigarette, just as one lights any
other fire on Yom Tov.


From: <adina@...> (Carl Sherer)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 95 8:02:20 IST
Subject: Sources for Black Hat

Joe Wetstein writes:

> > From: <adina@...> (Carl Sherer)
> > Well I don't know of a source that says that the hat must be *black* but
> > the Shulchan Aruch in OH 91 discusses the prohibition against davening
> > with one's head uncovered (for men) and the Mishna Brura in SK 12 states
> > that in our times one should wear a hat to daven.
> Can you please double check this... doesn't 91 only go up to 6?

Sorry, I should have spelled out the source - it's Mishna Brura Siman
91 Sif Katan 12 (which is in fact commenting on Sif 5 in the Shulchan
Aruch in that Siman).

-- Carl Sherer
	Adina and Carl Sherer
		You can reach us both at:


From: Lon Eisenberg <eisenbrg@...>
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 95 9:10:16 EST
Subject: Southern Comfort (once again)

It was served this morning in Rabbi Tendler's shul (Rabbi Tendler wasn't
there).  Someone claimed it's okay again.  Does anyone have the
necessary information?  Without kashruth certification on such a
product, how can one ever know when it can be purchased other than going
to the plant where it is produced and observing the production?

Lon Eisenberg	DRS Military Systems  138 Bauer Drive  Oakland, NJ 07436  USA
voice: +1-201-405-2978  fax: +1-201-337-3314


From: <MEBESQ@...> (Michael E. Beer)
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 22:23:38 -0400
Subject: Thanksgiving

I thank Dani Wasser from Sydney for his insight on our American Holiday.
I have a few new thoughts on the topic.

1. Many NY area yeshivot are closed or have 1/2 day classes due to
shortage of transportation or secular study teachers who will not work.
Thus its a good day for an autum family "get together".  I my family
there is an annual family get together which always included Divray

2. While the origin of the holiday was a "thanks" to g-d for assisting
the Pilgrim's survive the 1st year in the New Land, there was also
Indian's present who are not christian and who took part in the original
 The modern celebration has no religious context.  There is no christian
service as there is with Easter and Christmas, and while I can agree
with Dani that to celebrtae the "non-religious" elements of Christmas
like a tree is not acceptable, I see no problem with having a
Thanksgiving Day celebration that includes a "Turkey and all the

3. With regard to ex-American Olim celebrating does Dani feel that they
should shed all ties with their native land.  I'm sure that Russian olim
celebrate May Day?  I suppose these Americam olim like the idea of the
holiday, mostly for reason # 1 above.

I still await Rabbi Broyde's comments.

Till next time,

Michael E. Beer


From: <icb@...> (Israel Botnick)
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 95 11:05:06 EDT
Subject: Women and Zimmun

from <jeremy@...> (Jeremy Nussbaum)
>> From: <icb@...> (Israel Botnick)
>> I am curious as to what Rav Shlomoh Zalman Auerbach zatsal (quoted
>> above) held. Is his opinion the same as Rav Lichtenstien (that the men
>> are not included in the zimun), or does he hold that the men can answer
>> normally, because they are part of the zimmun. The difference would be,
>> whether the woman leading the zimun can motzi the men in the birkat
>> hamazon (bentching - if it is all said outloud). This is only possible
>> if the men are considered part of the zimun.

> The issue of whether a woman can be motzi(ah) a man in birkhat hamazon
> is more complicated.
> three opinions (yes, really) about the nature of women's obligation
> in birkat hamazon:
> 1. They are obligated rabinically.
> 2. They are obligated scripturally.
> 3. We are not sure if they are obligated rabinically or scripturally.

I should have been a little more explicit when asking this question.
There are different opinions as to the nature of women's obligation
in birkat hamazon (biblical, rabbinic ...) however the gemara (brachos 20b)
concludes that if a man eats Pachus Mi-Kedai Sevia[less than the
point of satiation], then his obligation is only rabbinic and
all agree that a woman (or minor) can motzi him. The shulchan aruch
in O.C. 186 quotes this conclusion.
My question had to do with the zimun aspect. In general one can only motzi
another person in benching if they all are part of a zimun (shulcah aruch
O.C. 193 - one exception being a case of echad sofer echad bor - one person
knows how to bench and the other doesnt and there is no third person).
I was curious as to whether a man can join a zimun of three women and
thus have the woman leading the benching be motzi him (where he ate pochus
mekdai sevia), or is he an outsider to the zimun and only can answer.

Israel Botnick


End of Volume 21 Issue 87