Volume 21 Number 91
                       Produced: Fri Nov 10  1:03:16 1995

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Bracha Seeing a Secular Scholar
         [Mark Goldenberg]
Gas Stoves on Yom Tov
         [Yitzchok D. Frankel]
Hachnassat Orchim
         [Cheryl Hall]
Haftara Notes
         [Steve White]
Israel takes its authority from the rules of the king.
         [Gilad J. Gevaryahu]
Kashrus Symbols
         [Shimon Lebowitz ]
Ma'ariv siddur for mozei Shabbath
         [Lon Eisenberg]
More tunes - Haphtorah Tune
         [Moshe Rappoport]
Origin of 'Yok'
Reheating Food on Shabbat
         [Alan Zaitchik]
         [Jay Denkberg]
Suggestion on "yok"
         [Shalom Carmy]
Tunes for T'filot
         [Jeremy Nussbaum]
Yasir koach
         [Michael Marks]


From: <GOLDDDS@...> (Mark Goldenberg)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 1995 22:25:06 -0500
Subject: Re: Bracha Seeing a Secular Scholar

     I had the opportunity this summer to be present at the Simon
Weisenthal Center-Museum of Tolerance in Los Angleles, when an award was
bestowed upon King Hussein of Jordan. It was a remarkable event, as it
was the first time an Arab leader ever visited a Jewish Holocaust
center.  After much discussion with a number of the LOR who were present
at the ceremony, it was deemed appropriate to recite the bracha of
"SHENATAN MIKVODO LBASAR VADAM" when we first saw him.  The criteria
that was met, was that he indeed is a king and has the power of life and
death over his subjects.  There was a discussion if the king had to be
in "BIGDAY MALCHUT" (in his royal garb).  King Hussein was wearing a
business suit, however, this was considered to be his "BIGDAY MALCHUT".
It's not often that you get to say this BRACHA.

                                                             Mark Goldenberg


From: <Ydfrankel@...> (Yitzchok D. Frankel)
Date: Thu, 2 Nov 1995 00:34:05 -0500
Subject: Gas Stoves on Yom Tov

In a message dated 95-10-31 00:53:13 EST,  Isaac Balbin writes:

>Rav Moshe apparently felt that Gram Kibui (indirect extinguishing of a
>flame) on Yom Tov was muttar and apparently would turn off certain gas
>stoves on yom tov on this basis.

I personally spoke to Harav Feinstein Z.Tz.L. about this issue and the
psak had nothing to do with gram kibui. Harav Feinstein Z.Tz.L. held,
(and most logically so), that there was no Kibui whatsoever in the
practice since nothing was extinguished by the action. Rather, fuel that
was burning just burned out and no new fuel was added. This is in
contradistinction to other cases where there is a wick that is

Yitzchok D. Frankel
Long Beach, NY


From: <CHERYLHALL@...> (Cheryl Hall)
Date: Thu, 09 Nov 1995 01:39:11 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Hachnassat Orchim

Sam Saal made some very good remarks regarding inviting singles etc to
Shabbat and Yom Tov meals. This definitely needs to be encouraged, but
with a thoughtful approach.

What I mean by thoughtful is a bit of advanced planning and maybe a more
direct invitation. Spontaneous invitations on Shabbat are problematic,
for the "invitee". Many times I have received after Musaf (and even
accepted) invitations to a Kiddush lunch. Of course my hosts mean well,
but....  that means I have a rather substantial Kiddush Lunch sitting at
home. A related issue is the question,"Do you have a place for lunch
(etc)". Well of course... I have a home... a traditionally observant

In regarding to asking for an invitation... it may be my own character
flaw, but no I don't even ask my best friends (who on their own accord
BH invite me frequently for all of Shabbat) . That my be more true of BT
than just singles, but I don't think it is at all unique. It's too much
of an imposition. It puts people in a position where it is too dificult
to say no, and then there's all that rejection stuff if they do.

Singles and baalei teshuva don't (or at least shouldn't) expect to have
meals and invitations every week. Obviously, it is also a mitzvah for us
to HAVE guests. So that's the other half of it... be willing to BE
GUESTS. I used to have guests. I seldom do now... when I got "frum"
there were still guests but then my guests got frum too!! Of course we
all live too far from one another. I live 2 miles from the
schul... which is too far for everyone there. On occassion though my
old, but recently frum, friends still manage to walk the 6-9
miles.... (actually one of the listmembers is part of that crowd!!!)

Cheryl <CHERYLHALL@...> Long Beach CA USA

Of course this is the perspective of a single middle-aged finacially
independent woman...


From: <StevenJ81@...> (Steve White)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 1995 13:28:40 -0500
Subject: Haftara Notes

That blue chumash is probably the Hertz chumash -- i.e., the chumash edited
by the late Chief Rabbi of the UK, Rabbi Hertz.  Hence those haftara notes
would be just the ones you use in the UK.
Steve White


From: <Gevaryahu@...> (Gilad J. Gevaryahu)
Date: Tue, 7 Nov 1995 09:18:32 -0500
Subject: Israel takes its authority from the rules of the king.

In MJ21#72 Carl Sherer writes:

>Whether or not dina demalchusa applies to the Israeli government I
>think it's pretty clear that at least according to the Rambam the
>Israeli government could not possibly have the status of a King.  See,
>for example, Hilchos Mlochim 1:3 (the appointment of a King requires a
>Sanhedrin of 71 and a Navi), 1:4 (a ger- and certainly a non-Jew [my
>addition] - may not be the King or be any sort of government
>functionary) and 1:7 (appointment of a King requires annointment with
>Shemen Hamishcha).  I think the return of a King will have to wait for
>Mashiach BBYA.

And in MJ21#74 David Charlap writes:

>This might have weight if Israel had a king.  It doesn't.  Israel has a
>prime minister, whose power is much less than a king's would be.
>Furthermore, the real power is weilded by a committe - the
>K'neset. Rule by committee is certainly not part of any king's rule.

>I don't think halachot referring to a king are applicable unless the
>Davidic dynasty is reestablished, and the king is from the royal
>family. When that happens, moshiach will have arrived.

In my original posting I suggested that the Israeli government takes its
authority (to tax and all other authority) from the rules of the king.
This is the opinion of the Rambam: "Rashei Galuiot she'beBavel bimkom
melech hem omdim" [= the civil leaders of the Babylonian exile act under
the authority of a king] (Hilchot Sanhedrin 4:13). This is consistent
with Rambam's position in Perush Ha'Mishnayot (Bechorot 4:4)

Similar opinion is expressed by Ha'Meiri (Sanhedrin 52b) "The rules of
the king are applicable in every generation...and go to the leaders of
the generation".

Hatam Sofer states that the civil authority takes its power from Mishpat
ha'Melech (Shut Hatam Sofer, Orach Chaim 208.)

Rabbi Kook stated specifically that this rules apply to the civil
authorities of Israel (in his time) who take their power from the rules
of the king.  (Mishpat Cohen, Siman 144)

Gilad J. Gevaryahu


From: Shimon Lebowitz  <LEBOWITZ@...>
Date: Thu,  26 Oct 95 13:17 +0200
Subject: Kashrus Symbols

Sometime within the last year or so, someone posted a LARGE file of
kashrus symbols in use in the usa, which were approved by some local
beit din.

i have met several people in the usa (over IRC) who were interested in
kashrus, and would like this file.

could the poster, or any one else who still has it around, please email
me a copy?  mine seems to have been lost when i moved to this new PC :(

thanks, tizku lemitzvot!

Shimon Lebowitz                   Bitnet:   LEBOWITZ@HUJIVMS
VM System Programmer              internet: <lebowitz@...>
Israel Police National HQ.        IBMMAIL:  I1060211
Jerusalem, Israel                 phone:    +972 2 309-877  fax: 309-888


From: Lon Eisenberg <eisenbrg@...>
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 95 11:48:58 EST
Subject: Ma'ariv siddur for mozei Shabbath

Why is there any issue?  Since when is moving a permissible object
within a private domain on Shabbath considered preparation for after
Shabbath?  That would mean that I can't leave my home with my key, which
I don't need to open the door until after Shabbath.

Lon Eisenberg	DRS Military Systems  138 Bauer Drive  Oakland, NJ 07436  USA
voice: +1-201-405-2978  fax: +1-201-337-3314


From: Moshe Rappoport <mer@...>
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 1995 11:07:44 +0100
Subject: More tunes - Haphtorah Tune

Barry Graham wrote:

> I always wondered how it can be that the tune I sing for haphtaras,
> very popular in the UK (or at least in London), is rarely heard or
> recognized or known in the USA, even though the notes are shown at the
> back of the blue Chumash used in many USA shuls.  Does anyone know
> where the notes in this Chumash originate from?

The haphtorah tune used here in Zurich is no doubt the same as the one
you know from England. This is the "Yekkish" German rite tune that is
almost totally unknown in the US - except for the Nussach Frankfurt

Many American Shuls were founded in the late 1800's early 1900's by
immigrants from Russia and Poland who brought with them the tune that is
widely used today around the world including Israel.

BTW the same applies to the tune for Kriass Hatorah as well.

Moshe Rappoport
IBM Zurich Research Laboratory - Saeumerstrasse 4
CH-8803 Rueschlikon/Switzerland
Tel.  +41-1-7248-424      Fax.   +41-1-724-0904
email:  <mer@...>


From: Moshe&Jeanne <101355.1634@...>
Date: 09 Nov 95 13:49:29 EST
Subject: Re: Origin of 'Yok'

We were discussing this same question with some Shabbos guests a few
weeks ago.  I'm English and Moshe is American, and since coming to
England he has heard this word for the first time.  One of our guests
told us that the origin of the word 'Yok' is from the York Massacre
(please could a historian help me out with the date and details - I have
been there but it was years ago and I can't remember exactly).

Hope this sheds at least some light for you.

Jeanne Klempner


From: Alan Zaitchik <ZAITCHIK%<INCDV1@...>
Date: Thu, 09 Nov 1995 09:39:13 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Reheating Food on Shabbat

David Jacob says:
	As a prominent Achron, the RAV could choose the minority view even 
	though the majority paskan that WE DO NOT ALLOW reheating of items 
	on Shabbos under any circumstances.  (Due to MECHZAI KIBISHUL ETC)

I was born in 1949 and grew up in an Orthodox community. EVERYONE reheated
dry food on shabbat. 


From: Jay Denkberg <73472.2162@...>
Date: 09 Nov 95 15:14:36 EST
Subject: Ribit

I was about to start giving my children an allowance. (shhh, I haven't 
told them yet!) I would like to teach them the value of saving
their money by "rewarding" them with interest.  Can I?

They are under bar/bat mitzvah, if that makes a difference.



From: Shalom Carmy <carmy@...>
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 1995 10:58:44 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Suggestion on "yok"

The term "yok" as a synonym for the pejorative "goy," is totally new to 
me. Is it possibly a corruption of "goy" spelled backwards. Rhyming or 
backward slang is a feature of lower class English culture (e.g. "yobs" 
for "boys."


From: <jeremy@...> (Jeremy Nussbaum)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 95 15:06:52 EST
Subject: Re: Tunes for T'filot

>        Regarding tunes for t'filot, when I was in yeshiva -- and it was
> so long ago I can't remember whether it was Telshe Chicago or Bet
> Medrash LaTorah, under Rav Aharon Soloveichik -- I was told that a nigun
> (tune) is not mikabail tum'a (doesn't become ritually impure).
>         However, the rabbaim still threw a fit when one of us led the
> rest in singing Adon Alom to the tune of "Scarborough Fair, by Simon &
> Garfunkle -- despite the fact that both S&G are Jewish :) .
>      <Chihal@...> (Yeshaya Halevi)

Simon and Garfunkel combined Scarborough Fair with another song and
recorded the arrangement.  Scarborough Fair itself is an old English
folk song which tells of a quarrel between 2 former lovers, in which
they ask each other to perform impossible tasks before they would get
back together.  Lyrics available on request.  (For 10 points, what is a
cambric shirt?  :-) )

Jeremy Nussbaum (<jeremy@...>)


From: Michael Marks <marks@...>
Date: Thu, 19 Oct 1995 19:19:04 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Yasir koach

Yasir koach- lit. Koach strength, yashir- remail or left over.  when a
person does a good thing , a mitzvah he uses up his energy. some times
there is no direct or quick reward. generally mitzvot lav lhanos
nitnu... mitzvot were not given to derive pleasure from their
performance.  If a person uses his energy for the fulfillment of mitzvot
the person may weaken or feel enough is enough chas v' shalom.  Thus a
wish to a fellow Jew who has exerted himself in the performance of a
mitzvah has two very important results. 1. I wish that you have the
energy to continue you good deeds for yourself and Klal Yisroel 2. The
mere recognition by friends that one has conducted himself in a
meritorious fashion is a very positive reenforcement of ones faith,
courage, and energy to move forward and not to get "BURN OUT".  I hope
you don't use up all your energy reading this message, yashir koach!


End of Volume 21 Issue 91