Volume 21 Number 92
                       Produced: Fri Nov 10  1:05:33 1995

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

H.E. Prime Minister Rabin Z'L
         [Joseph Steinberg]
Kabbalists and Rabin
         [Yechezkal-Shimon Gutfreund]
Observations about Rabin Funeral & Taharah
         [Dr. Howard M. Berlin]
         [David Kramer]
         [Joseph Steinberg]
Rabin as Rodef
         [Mike Gerver]
Shir Shel Sholom  ?
         [Yechezkal-Shimon Gutfreund]
The Assassination
         [Steve White]


From: Joseph Steinberg <steinber@...>
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 1995 14:07:59 -0500 (EST)
Subject: H.E. Prime Minister Rabin Z'L 

I find it quite repulsive that any Jew can rejoice about the murder of
Israel's Prime Minister; I have never been a supporter of Mr. Rabin, but
as a Jew and a human being I have not been able to sleep for two

There are no politics at issue here. Mr. Rabin Z'L was martyred for what
he believed in. Whether or not his beliefs were correct is
irrelevant. An elected Jewish head-of-state was murdered by his brother,
because he (the victim) acted upon his fervent beliefs -- beliefs that
he could help his people, that he could better the world.

That we as a nation could sink so low is truly a tragedy of tremendous

How could we have degenerated to such a point where one of us could
commit such a heinous crime -- and with no remorse?

How could we sink so low that a Ben Brit could believe that it was the
right thing to do to kill Israel's Prime Minister?

Uru Y'sheinim Mi'sheinatchem...

NB: That Mr. Amir, the late Mr. Baruch Goldstein, and probably our
anonymous poster (based upon his/her email address) all are/were
'religious' does not make me feel any better... 

    | | ___  ___  ___ _ __ | |__      Joseph Steinberg
 _  | |/ _ \/ __|/ _ \ '_ \| '_ \     <steinber@...>
| |_| | (_) \__ \  __/ |_) | | | |    http://pages.nyu.edu/~jzs7697
 \___/ \___/|___/\___| .__/|_| |_|    +1-201-833-9674


From: Yechezkal-Shimon Gutfreund <sgutfreund@...>
Date: Thu, 09 Nov 1995 10:12:12 -0500
Subject: Kabbalists and Rabin

Does anyone have any information about the predictions and ceremonies
done by certain Kabbalists (e.g. R. Kadouri (sp?))  and their connection
to the death of Rabin?

Yechezkal-Shimon Gutfreund		 	            
GTE Laboratories,Waltham MA      


From: Dr. Howard M. Berlin <berlin@...>
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 1995 08:29:43 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Observations about Rabin Funeral & Taharah

Y . Hollander had made some observations about the funeral of Mr. Rabin.
For the most part I had also noticed most of them. I made mention of
them to my brother-in-law, who is an immigrant from (then)
Czechoslovakia ('70) and was visiting us from Israel for the week when
this happened, while both of us were watching the funeral.

Of the observations pointed out by Mr. Hollander, we both noticed and
commented on why wasn't the blood-stained paper buried also. However,
one other item that struck me as strange was that there were flowers at
the funeral. There was a camera shot of a line of female soldiers in
uniform standing by wreaths of flowers, the kind that gentiles
customarily place at gravesites. I mentioned to my brother-in-law that I
thought that there was a universal minhag was that flowers at a funeral
were not proper and the money that would otherwise be spent on them is
to go to charity. As an Ashkanaz Jew, he agreed and my mother-in-law
(who lives in the US with us) also nodded. However, my brother-in-law
said that it is very common in Israel.

We also discussed if Rabin's clothing was buried with him and would he
be dressed in trachrichim (mitznephet - head dress, michnasayim -
trousers, k'notet - chemise, kittel, avnet - belt, tallit, and sovev - a
sheet) or because he was shot, no washing or taharah be performed and
the body placed in the casket without removing the clothes and wrapped
in sovev.

My brother-in-law is a pathologist and cited to me the differences (for
purposes of taharah, etc.,) between when a person, who is shot, is
presumed to be dead, especially if surgery is involved. He mentioned
that because of the circumstances taharah would be performed, the body
would be washed in the prescribed manner, dressed in trachichim and the
clothing he wore when shot would be buried with him. If there was blood
on the ground where he was shot, personnel may have also taken scrapings
from the ground and buried them also. In the army, my brother-in-law
tells me that when a soldier is shot and killed in battle, the blood on
the dirt, ground is also buried with the body (if collected).

I appologize for discussing what might be a upsetting topic to some, but
the reason why I was asking some of these questions about taharah to my
broth-in-law was because I had recently decided to join the Chevra
Kadisha here in Delaware, where there is only one Orthodox undertaker.
Of course the older, more experienced members of the Chevra Kadisha
would educate me in the various possibilities when performing the
taharah ritual.

 /~~\\       ,    , ,                             Dr. Howard M. Berlin, W3HB
|#===||==========#***|                           http://www.dtcc.edu/~berlin


From: David Kramer <davidk@...>
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 1995 14:17:48 +0200 (IST)
Subject: Perspective

What alot of people especially outside of Israel don't realize or are
oblivious to is the incredible abuse the right wing community and
especially datiim have been constantly bombarded by from the media, from
government ministers and from 'enlightened' proffesors and writers.

You have no idea what it feels like to turn on the radio and hear the
hate and abuse directed at you daily. We have had every possible insult
hurled at us including being accused of being enemies of peace, and
partners with the Hammas. Tens of thousands of people attend an
impressive quiet and peaceful demonstration, and a few dozen crazies go
overboard - and you hear almost nothing about the demonstration except
for the 'violence' and 'inciting' protest signs (which you had to look
very hard to find).

Netanyahu and all other opposition leaders condemn the signs and the
violence at every opportunity. Nearly every speaker who gets up at these
rallies stresses and implores the crowd to show restraint, to fight the
govt policies through legal means. Yet the Big Lie continues. They
repeat it again and again - and it's working - it has nearly become a
fact that the opposition leaders are responsible because they incited
the violence.  But it needs to be made clear to everyone who values
truth - that this is the Big Lie.

And on top of that hundreds of thousands of Jews in Yesha and bordering
towns are being put in a position where they will be in danger daily -
living next door to terrorist havens - and they get no sympathy, no warm
pat on the shoulder - instead they get showered with insults and blood
libel accusations.

What community could withstand such unbearable frustration, fear and
pain??  Only one - the community brought up with a deep and sincere
commitment to Torah, to the Land of Israel, and to the Jewish people -
believing that despite the hate we must love back - because only Ahavat
Chinam will bring our redemption.

And yes - we have some unstable people, we have the emotionally immature
among us, and those who despite spending years in yeshivot have somehow
missed the message. And yes - there are too many like that - because
even one is too many. But let's put things into perspective. No
community is free of such maladies. And although we need to greatly
improve on many things - including the percentage of successes in our
educational system - there is no other community that comes close to the
successes that we have acheived. And there is no community that would be
able to go through what this community has gone through which the
civility, level headedness and dignity that our community as a whole has

 - David Kramer
   Ginot Shomron, Israel


From: Joseph Steinberg <steinber@...>
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 1995 14:08:31 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Rabin 

I continue to be repulsed by reports of Jews celebrating the murder of
Yitzhak Rabin -- and by some of the postings to 'Tachlis.' These
postings are not only disgusting, but also off topic...

As I mentioned in my previous post, the martyrdom of a man for a cause
he believes in has nothing to do with politics. Whether or not G-d
decided that Rabin should go to his grave with blood because he murdered
Jews off the shore of Jaffa 50 years ago is G-d's business. That the
Jewish Prime Minister, elected by Jews, representing Jews, fighting for
what he considered the best opportunities to be for the Jewish people,
was MURDERED by another Jew -- that is every Jew's business. We, as a
nation that is truly 'Am Keved Avon,' need to do some major soul

    | | ___  ___  ___ _ __ | |__      Joseph Steinberg
 _  | |/ _ \/ __|/ _ \ '_ \| '_ \     <steinber@...>
| |_| | (_) \__ \  __/ |_) | | | |    http://pages.nyu.edu/~jzs7697
 \___/ \___/|___/\___| .__/|_| |_|    +1-201-833-9674


From: <GERVER@...> (Mike Gerver)
Date: Wed, 8 Nov 1995 2:39:07 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Rabin as Rodef

Suppose, for the sake of argument, that Yigal Amir's twisted logic were
correct: that Rabin's policies of giving back land made him a rodef, and
that anyone therefore had the right and obligation to kill him, without
a trial by a Sanhedrin. This would only be true if killing him would
prevent the land from being given back. In reality, the assasination was
the one thing that could have been done to ensure that Labor gets a
large margin of victory in the next election, and can go full steam
ahead in continuing the peace process. If Rabin were still alive, then
it is likely that either Likud would win the next election, or that the
results would be very close, and in either case the process would be
slowed down at least. How can Amir justify his actions in light of this?

I can't help thinking that either 1) the peace process is good for
Israel, in spite of our fears, and Hashem allowed this terrible thing to
happen because it was the only way to keep the peace process going, or
2) the peace process is a disaster for Klal Yisrael, and its likely
acceleration in the near future is a punishment for (and a natural
consequence of) the sinat chinam that led to the assasination. Take your

Mike Gerver, <gerver@...>


From: Yechezkal-Shimon Gutfreund <sgutfreund@...>
Date: Wed, 08 Nov 1995 10:53:03 -0500
Subject: Shir Shel Sholom  ?

A song (titled "Shir shel Sholom") was sung by Rabin before he was
shot. I heard the lyrics on NPR last night, along with the story that
copies of it were in great demand by "Rabbis and Cantors" in the USA. I
found the lyrics very troubling. Here is a copy of a translation:

Let the sun rise, the morning shine,
the most righteous prayer will not bring us back.
Who is the one whose light has been extinguished,
and buried in the earth;
bitter tears will not wake him,
will not bring him back.
No song of praise or victory will avail us.
Therefore, sing only a song of peace.
Don't whisper a prayer - sing aloud a song of peace.

-- The lyrics seem to be an openly questioning techiyas hamaysim and
the efficacy of prayer. Is this why sholom achshav likes it so
much? I worry very much for the future of Eretz Yisroel and all
Yiddim with the rise in such sentiments.

Yechezkal-Shimon Gutfreund
GTE Laboratories,Waltham MA


From: <StevenJ81@...> (Steve White)
Date: Thu, 9 Nov 1995 13:28:54 -0500
Subject: The Assassination

In #88 Mordechai Perlman writes:
>...  Should we sympathize with the nirtzach 
>regardless.  Should we forgive and forget?  May we?  and Why?

I think yes -- at least forgive.  Avot also says "Dan l'kaf z'chut" --
judge people meritoriously.  Rabin unquestionably did many good things
for klal yisrael, too, and perhaps he had done teshuva over the
_Altalena_.  (By the way, there's a somewhat fictionalized, but very
approachable, account in Herman Wouk's _The Hope_.)  Forget is a
different story, but the man is dead now.  "Not forgetting" means not
letting mistakes happen again, not villifying a man who can no longer
defend himself on earth -- and by the way, such villification invites
loshon hara.

Yosey Goldstein writes:

>   However, to attack the Yeshiva world and the education process, is
>part of the chillul hashem. 

To "attack" -- that's right, but I don't think anyone on _this_ list
"attacked" the Yeshiva world or the educational process.  What people on
this list _have_ done is to say that if this person came out of the
Yeshiva world and then did this, one of three things has happened:

1.  He didn't understand the Torah he learned in Yeshiva because he just
didn't get it; or
2.  He didn't understand the Torah because his teachers, though not in error,
were insufficiently clear in their teaching; or
3.  He didn't understand the Torah because his teachers, being human, erred.

I'd love it to be #1, but even if there were no evidence that it were #2
and #3, it would behoove us to investigate #2 and #3 and make sure they
were not true.  And frankly, there's some pretty good evidence out there
for some of #2 and #3, so kal vachomer we must investigate.  Even in
Avot, we have warnings to be careful about #2 and #3.  Steve White


End of Volume 21 Issue 92