Volume 21 Number 97
                       Produced: Mon Nov 13 20:31:13 1995

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

         [Steve White]
Carrying on Shabos for afterwards
Giving Land Away (2)
         [Mordechai Perlman, Avi Feldblum]
Hachana (preparation)
         [Ari Shapiro]
Israel takes its authority from the rules of the king.
         [David Charlap]
Pidyon Ha Ben Coins
         [Stew Gottlieb]
Shabbat Hot Plate and psak Shopping
         [Jay Denkberg]
         [Gilad J. Gevaryahu]


From: <StevenJ81@...> (Steve White)
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1995 16:48:23 -0500
Subject: Calendar

Thanks for a good article on this subject (v21/#94), something that has
always been an interest of mine.  You've gone and dug up just about
everything I had ever seen on the subject, and then some, so I
appreciate it.

But I still have four questions/comments about this:

1.  What, exactly, constitutes Pesach in season?  I can think of several
examples, including:

 a- at least one day of the holiday falls in the first 30 days after the
true vernal equinox (note: I once calculated that the first day of
Pesach must have been before the equinox in at least a couple of years
of the 19-year cycle in the first few centuries after Hillel II, but
perhaps I miscalculated)
 b- over half of the holiday falls in the first 30 days after the true
vernal equinox
 c- the first day of the holiday falls in the first 30 days after the
true vernal equinox; and

 d- any of a,b, or c in every year of the 19-year cycle (this would be
like Easter, which seems to have its roots in Pesah)
 e- any of a,b, or c in "most of" the 19-year cycle (this would be like
what we have now, since in about two years of each 19 Pesah starts over
30 days after the equinox)
 f- any of a,b, or c in at one year of the 19-year cycles

I've never found a source saying exactly what the halacha is here.

2.  In the absence of Moshiach (may he come soon -- we need him), the
other way to accomplish a calendar rectification besides waiting until
10608 would be to delay the seventh leap year in a 19-year cycle to the
20th year.  I think I once calculated that doing this about every six
cycles would keep the calendar pretty close to astronomical true, but
again it's been a while, and I may have mistaken it.

3.  This still begs the question of who has the authority to do such a
correction (however it's actually accomplished), absent unity in the
Torah world (not to mention a Sanhedrin, appropriately ordained rabbis,
etc., etc.).

4.  If ten tal u'matar's start date moves up enough, maybe we'll stop
saying it entirely in hutz la'aretz!  Or better, maybe we'll switch to
Eretz Yisrael dates, which make more sense than Iraq dates these days
anyway!  :-)

Steve White


From: crp_chips <chips@...>
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 21:34:01 -0800
Subject: Re: Carrying on Shabos for afterwards

>From: Lon Eisenberg <eisenbrg@...>
>Why is there any issue?  Since when is moving a permissible object
>within a private domain on Shabbath considered preparation for after
>Shabbath?  That would mean that I can't leave my home with my key, which
>I don't need to open the door until after Shabbath.

Hmmm, since it is not allowed to carry a tallis home from shul after
Musaf at first glance I would say that you wouldn't be allowed to carry
the key.  However, speaking from personal experience, about 1/3 of the
time i leave my apartment i go right back to get something i left
behind. A reasoning could be made that since one is not sure when one
would go back home, its ok.

In general, my understanding of an 'eruv' is that it DOES NOT ipso facto
make carrying permitted. Only carrying under certain parameters is
permitted, since the 'eruv' does not make a real `rishus hayachid`.


From: Mordechai Perlman <aw004@...>
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1995 12:31:43 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Giving Land Away

	Are there any Torah Jews who are in favour of the land giving?
My question is addressed to them.  Since we all believe in the coming of
Moshiach as a reality, not just a legend, chas v'shalom, if Israel gives
land to the Arabs, is it given only until that time in history?  After
all, we know that the entire land as promised to Avrohom will be K'lal
Yisroel's possession at that time.  Therefore, it stands to reason that
we are only giving it to them as a temporary lease, so to say.  And in
that case, do we not have a duty, as Torah abiding Jews, to inform the
leasees of this?

			Mordechai Perlman

From: Avi Feldblum <feldblum>
Date: Mon, 13 Nov 1995 20:29:47 -0500
Subject: Re: Giving Land Away

Mordechai Perlman writes:
> 	Are there any Torah Jews who are in favour of the land giving?
> ...
> do we not have a duty, as Torah abiding Jews, to inform the leasees of this?

I'll take a stab at this. I don't see by the way that the question (in
favor of giving land away) has any real relevance to the second
question, since I believe that most authorities agree that if one "knew"
that giving the land away would result in no more Jewish deaths and not
doing so would continue to result in deaths, that one would give the
land away.

That entity that gives the land away is not leasing the land. It is not
that same entity that has given the land that will come back and ask for
it in return. Rather, it is the Melech Hamashiach who will take back
land from whomever (non-Jewish) is holding it. This event will clearly
be outside the normal commercial and likely political
interactions. Rather I would compare the case to one who is buying
property, and there may be a nearby or distant kingdom that may be about
to go to war and will conquer this area. In the common latin/english
phrase - let the buyer beware.



From: <m-as4153@...> (Ari Shapiro)
Date: Sat, 11 Nov 95 19:53:34 EST
Subject: Hachana (preparation)

<Why is there any issue?  Since when is moving a permissible object
<within a private domain on Shabbath considered preparation for after
<Shabbath?  That would mean that I can't leave my home with my key, which
<I don't need to open the door until after Shabbath.

The prohibition of hachana (preparation) is to do an action that you
don't need for Shabbos but for after Shabbos. If moving an object around
your house is preparing for after Shabbos it is prohibited.  The SSK
(Shemiras Shabbos K'Hilchasa) (chapter 28, 81) gives the following
distinction. He says (from R' Auerbach) that anything that is not a
tircha(takes no effort) and is done without thinking is not called
hachana.  Therefore taking your keys is permitted because it takes no
effort and is something done without thinking, when you leave you take
your keys. Taking a siddur to daven Maariv on the other hand while it
takes no effort it is not something done without thinking and therefore

Ari Shapiro


From: <david@...> (David Charlap)
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 95 10:38:50 EST
Subject: Israel takes its authority from the rules of the king.

<Gevaryahu@...> (Gilad J. Gevaryahu) writes:
>And in MJ21#74 David Charlap writes:
>>This might have weight if Israel had a king.  It doesn't.  Israel has a
>>prime minister, whose power is much less than a king's would be.
>>Furthermore, the real power is weilded by a committe - the
>>K'neset. Rule by committee is certainly not part of any king's rule.
>In my original posting I suggested that the Israeli government takes its
>authority (to tax and all other authority) from the rules of the king.
>This is the opinion of the Rambam: "Rashei Galuiot she'beBavel bimkom
>melech hem omdim" [= the civil leaders of the Babylonian exile act under
>the authority of a king] (Hilchot Sanhedrin 4:13). This is consistent
>with Rambam's position in Perush Ha'Mishnayot (Bechorot 4:4)

OK.  But the Rashei Galuiot were all of Beis David.  So, even though
the Judean kingdom didn't exist, these leaders were of the royal
family.  It is unclear from this passage whether Rambam meant it to
include all Jewish leaders or only those from the royal family.

Furthermore, how did the Rashei Galuiot get their positions?  Were they
elected?  Appointed?  Or did they inherit the position?  Did they serve
for life or did they serve in terms?  And is this at all relevant to
having the power of a king?

>Similar opinion is expressed by Ha'Meiri (Sanhedrin 52b) "The rules of
>the king are applicable in every generation...and go to the leaders of
>the generation".
>Hatam Sofer states that the civil authority takes its power from Mishpat
>ha'Melech (Shut Hatam Sofer, Orach Chaim 208.)
>Rabbi Kook stated specifically that this rules apply to the civil
>authorities of Israel (in his time) who take their power from the rules
>of the king.  (Mishpat Cohen, Siman 144)

These are more explicit than Rambam.  But I still have a few questions:

- Was the Israeli civil authority the same in Rav Kook's time as they
  are now?  If not, how did they differ?  Was it "rule by committee"
  like it is now?

- Do you think Rambam and the others would agree with you when you claim
  that the K'nesset has the same power as a king?  After all, the
  K'nesset is made up of many people, and I don't think they're all

- Does the Prime Minister wield "supreme executive authority" in Israel?
  What powers does he have to act without support or consent from the


From: Stew Gottlieb <shmuel@...>
Date: Fri, 10 Nov 1995 12:04:13 -0500 (est)
Subject: Pidyon Ha Ben Coins

These coins were minted a number of years ago by a company that sells
Israeli coins and medals.  Are they acceptablefor useat a Pidyon Ha Ben?
If so, does anyone know where they can be purchased ?

Stew Gottlieb


From: Jay Denkberg <73472.2162@...>
Date: 11 Nov 95 16:21:14 EST
Subject: Re:Shabbat Hot Plate and psak Shopping

David Charlop was wondering why I was psak shopping and why I
was uncomfortable with a lenient psak. 

We are told in Perkey Avot that we should not judge someone 
until we are in their place, so I would like to help David, and anyone
on the list who felt the same way as David by explaining my situation. 
By doing so I hope you can better understand why I was asking about
the hot plate in the first place.

Yes  I was *uncomfortable* with his answer, and no I was *not* psak
shopping I was *RAV* shopping. Having made Aliya recently I need to
find a Rav here that I can ask questions of. Most of the people that have
come from my neighborhood in the US (West Hempstead, NY) and there 
are about 5 of us in the immediate vicinity have not been able to find
someone we are comfortable with.

A friend of mine, an Israeli in a different city, suggested I speak to
this particular Rav. The psak he gave was *different* then what I
remember being taught, so I presented the mail-jewish with a question. I
had no problem with it's leniency, it was simply different from what I
had remembered being taught.

Why didn't I ask him directy? I wanted to make sure that what I
remembered from Shmirat Shabbat K'hilchata was accurate and being that
he isn't my Rav nor the Rav of the shul I go to I felt somewhat akward
asking him to explain himself to me after I the fact.

I think it is perfectly legitimate to make sure you are comfortable with
a Rav and his psaks before accepting him as your Rav. No, I was not
interviewing him, I needed answers to these questions and I had noone
else to turn to. Even before I posted this question to the net I
followed his psak, I was certain from the outset that he knows more than
me, I just asked the mail-jewish for some help. I though there was
nothing wrong with that.



From: <Gevaryahu@...> (Gilad J. Gevaryahu)
Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 10:23:27 -0500
Subject: Yok

Source: The Oxford English Dictionary, 2nd Edition (1989) Vol. xx, p. 755

Yok. slang [Yiddish, Goy reversed with unvoicing of final consonant.] A
pejorative Jewish term for a non-Jew, a Gentile.

1923 A. Yezierska _Children of Loneliness_ 75. She stands there like a Yok
with her eyes in the air!  1960 _Time_ 17 May 17/4 Mr. Faulks..said that on
February 10, 1958, Mr.Daniels has said to Mr. Lincoln:'Unless you join me and
Mr. Jackson against that bloody Yok I will crush you, smash you and drag you
into the gutterr.' His Lordship asked the meaning of 'Yok' and was told that
it was a Yiddish word meaning a Gentile, a rude way of saying a 'Goy'. A
woman member of the jury. -- It is not rude.  1969  R. Esser _Hot Potato_ 34
My God, this could all be a Nasser plot. And you let this yok into our
Inteligence camp!  1970 _Guardian_ 21 July 8 Jews..in the arts are pretty
smashing but then some of the yoks are fabulous. 1981 R. Samuel _East End
Underworld_ vii. 76 There were five Jewish boys in the gang -- I was the only

To my best knowledge all the examples are British.

Gilad J. Gevaryahu


End of Volume 21 Issue 97