Volume 23 Number 40
                       Produced: Tue Mar 12 23:20:49 1996

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

120 years
         [Seth Magot]
Administrative Detention in Israel
         [Carl & Adina Sherer]
         [Jack Stroh]
Intermarriage in Israel?
         [Eliyahu Shiffman]
Israel Promoting Intermarriage
         [Jonathan Katz]
Krenzel Dance
         [A. M. Goldstein]
Masechet Haman
         [Elozor Preil]
Origin of a phrase
         [Schwartz Adam]
Silver 1/2 Shekels
         [Joseph Steinberg]
The Cookies in the Mail
         [Steve White]


From: <magot@...> (Seth Magot)
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 10:40:40 -0500 (EST)
Subject: 120 years

	120 years can be divided into three 40 year segments.  Moses'
life of 120 years could be broken into 40 year segments - 40 years in
Egypt, 40 years with his father-in-law and freeing the bet Yisroel, and
40 years leading the bet Yisroel.  R. Hillel who also lived to 120 years
spent 40 years being ignorant, 40 years learning, and 40 years leading.
There was an article written not to long ago about the number 40.  This
article basically noted that 40 stands for fullness (or completion).  If
anyone is interested in the citation of the article (which I do not have
memorized) send me a quick mail message and I will send the citation
back to you.

Seth Magot


From: Carl & Adina Sherer <sherer@...>
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 08:31:29 +0200
Subject: Administrative Detention in Israel

Eli Turkel writes:
>Carl Sherer states;
>>> Sadly, this is not what administrative detention indicates.
>>> Administrative detention is carried out by an order by an army commander
>>> stating that the detainee is a "danger".  It requires no formal charges.
>    Again this is not completely true. Cytryn's case was appealed to the
>the Israeli supreme court who reviewed all the evidence and okayed the
>detention subject to a future trial. The purpose of the detention is to
>prevent future "likely" crimes .

Not quite.  In Update 923 (February 11, 1996), Shomron News Service outlined
four principal objections to the administrative detention system.  These were:

1. An individual's freedom is taken away without the judicial process, which
is designed to protect every person's basic rights.

2. The formalities of the judicial process (witnesses, testimony and proof)
are hampered because of the State's "secret evidence" which is rarely shown
to the defense counsel.  This prevents the defense counsel from bringing
counter-arguments or any case built on the facts.

3. The appeal process for administrative orders is held before a military
panel that does not have the authority to cancel the administrative order in
question.  The military panel may only "suggest" to the OC Commander who
signed the order.

4. The parties responsible for issuing the administrative order, OC Central
Commanders, are subservient to political figures whose judgment is directly
influenced by the government.  (All mistakes in copying mine - I only have a
hard copy of the update - C.S.).

Cytryn was able to appeal to the Supreme Court (actually to the Supreme
Court acting as a High Court of Justice if you want to get technical) only
after a substantial portion of his sentence had been served.  I may be
wrong, but I do not believe in any event that the Supreme Court conducted a
de novo review of the evidence.  In any event, Cytryn's attorney was never
permitted to see the evidence against him - a most basic breach of due
process in any democratic system.  He was never formally charged with any
crime! And although he has been released from solitary confinement, an
administrative order limiting his movement remains in effect; he cannot
leave Kiryat Arba (Shomron News Update 924).  Since Cytryn normally works as
a video photographer, this order effectively prevents him from supporting
his family.

Additionally, most administrative detention cases (there are at least 23
Jews subject to such orders according to Shomron News Update 923) never make
it to the Supreme Court.  

> He further says
>>> I suspect that the reason Cytryn's sentence was nevertheless shortened was
>>> pressure from the US and other governments.
>    I personally would be very surprised if the American government
>pressured Israel while not pressuring Britain. At this stage we both
>have our unfounded guesses. I am more disturbed by those that view
>Israel as the 51st state of the US and everytime they feel something is
>wrong in Israel immediately appeal to the US to "overrule" the Israeli
>     As many people have pointed out the US government is pressuring the
>Israeli government to push forward at high speed with the peace
>agreement.  Should the Likud win the next election the left will be
>fully justified to appeal to the US government about every
>government/court decision that they don't like. One can't insist that
>the US should pressure Israel on some issues while insist that that
>Israel reject US pressures on other issues.

IMHO, it is naive to think that a superpower like the United States does not
attempt to pressure other governments on issues that are important to it.
That does not mean that the government being pressured *has* to give in.  I
hope that, if elected, a Likud government will do what it believes is best
for Israel regardless of any pressure the United States or any other
government may place upon it.  I also hope that whatever a Likud government
may do, it will not conduct a wholesale roundup of its political opponents
under the guise of administrative detention.

-- Carl Sherer
Carl and Adina Sherer


From: <jackst@...> (Jack Stroh)
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 13:50:11 -0500
Subject: Gedaliah

        I am resending this post since I did not get any answers a few
months ago when I first sent it. My navi group has been puzzled by the
story of Gedaliah found in Yirmiahu and Melachim. Briefly, Yirmiahu told
the leftover people of Jerusalem to go out and surrender to Nevuchadnezzar
and they would not be destroyed. Gedaliah and some others do this and are
rewarded after the Destruction with being named Governor of Judea. Gedaliah
then announced to those in hiding to come out and he would protect them,
that he would be between them and Nevuchadnezzar. A rebel leader warned
Gedaliah that Yishmael, a descendant of the Royal Family who was jealous,
wanted to kill him, but this was dismissed as a lie. On Rosh Hashannah at
the Yom tov meal, Yishmael massacres Gedaliah and his people, and kills
another 80 visitors the next day before escaping to Ammon.
        Our questions are- why did Yirmiahu not warn Gedaliah? Gedaliah is
called a Tzaddik by the gemorah and listened to Hashem, yet no warning,
encouragement, or criticism? Where was Yirmiahu on Rosh Hashannah? Why
wasn't he celebrating with the Important People, the only remnant of the
Jews in Judea? We know he was in Judea because Nevuzaradan, the Butcher of
Bavel, sent him back to be with Gedaliah so he wouldn't be hurt. Why do we
only hear of Yirmiahu again when he warns the "Remnant" not to go down to
Egypt to escape from Nevuchadnezzar? Was Hashem angry that Gedaliah was
establishing a secular state in Judea? True people (including the wicked)
have freedom of choice to kill whomever they wish, but usually Hashem will
intercede when the killing would alter his ultimate plan- in this case, the
"Remnant of Israel" was dislodged from Judea, not to return for 70 years.


From: Eliyahu Shiffman <RLSHIFF@...>
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 14:22:46 +200
Subject: Intermarriage in Israel?

    Re Joseph Steinberg's posting "Israel Promoting Intermarriage": a 
little perspective is needed.  I do not have statistics in front of 
me, but I think I would be safe in saying that the intermarriage rate 
in Israel is far less than one per cent.
    While meetings between Jews and Arabs to promote greater
understanding do carry the danger of intermarriage, since Judaism is the
majority culture here, and since there is no evidence that the Christian
and Moslem Arabs participating in these meetings are any more
knowledgeable about their religions than the Jewish participants, I
would guess that the danger is not great.
    In the U.S., on the other hand, the intermarriage rate is greater
than 50 per cent, and Jews, as the minority culture there, are
susceptible just by virtue of living there.  Meetings between Jews and
non-Jews are not cross-cultural special events, they are a part of
everyday life.
    I am not brushing off the concerns expressed in Mr. Steinberg's
posting, but I think that, given the statistics, these are properly
Israeli concerns, and that American Jews have more pressing concerns re
intermarriage.  Coming from outside Israel, this posting looks
uncomfortably like Israel-bashing, although I'm sure that was not
Mr. Steinberg's intent.
    For those in the diaspora who want to have an influence on the
Jewishness of Israeli society, I suggest climbing down from the
bleachers and getting onto the playing field.

Eliyahu Shiffman
Beit Shemesh


From: <frisch1@...> (Jonathan Katz)
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 96 23:14:17 EST
Subject: Israel Promoting Intermarriage 

I believe you misinterpreted the end of the interview which you recently
posted to mail-jewish:

>IMRA:  There is also the problem that because the Jews have poor
>backgrounds, that such meetings encourage intermarriage.

>Spokesman:  The purpose of the meetings is to encourage understanding.
>Other things may happen but that is not the point.  When you join together
>religious and nonreligious Jews they also may end up marrying each other.

>IMRA:  Is it a problem that Jews marry each other?

>Spokesman:  There are parents who would not be happy about it.

I believe what he is saying is that many religious parents are unhappy if
their religious children marry non-religious spouses. Simillarly, I suppose
there are many non-religious parents who would not be happy if their
children decided to marry a religious person.

I don't think he is saying that anyone is a priori unhappy with the concept
of Jews marrying other Jews...

Jonathan Katz
410 Memorial Drive, 233F
Cambridge, MA 02139


From: A. M. Goldstein <MZIEASHR@...>
Date: Mon, 11 Mar 96 10:40:46 IST
Subject: Krenzel Dance

I would like to know all and everything about the "krenzel tanz," done
when the last child is married off.  Who participates, any special
music, can it be done before sheva brachot, what customs, practices,
etc. (even prohibitions?), attend this dance, which is also known by
another name (which I forget--something like "meiziken," but I may be
way off).  Need this information quickly as wedding I am going to is
this Wednesday, if all's well, and I'll be leaving my office by one
p.m. Haifa time.


From: <EMPreil@...> (Elozor Preil)
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 21:13:07 -0500
Subject: Masechet Haman

>	The Talmud tells us of a dispute as to whether Homon made
>himself into a god or not.  Assuming the opinion that he did make
>himself into a god, if a k'zayis of Homon fell into a pot of meat, does
>it make the meat forbidden to eat?  Do we say that Homon is "nosein
>ta'am lifgam" (gives off a taste which is not enhancing) because of the
>refuse poured on him, or do we say that this is not enough to destroy
>his regualr taste, perhaps because he tasted of refuse all the time?

I recognize that "shaila" (halachic query) - it is the opening mishna of
"Masechet Haman", a mildly amusing tome dealing primarily with drinking
and intoxication.  I picked it up many years ago in Israel, but I
haven't seen it in years.  This halachic classic is not to be confused
with the equally authoritative tome titled "Masechet Purim."

Kol tuv,


From: Schwartz Adam <adams@...>
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 10:18:13 +0200
Subject: Origin of a phrase

Does anyone know where the phrase, Hashem Yinkom Damo(am), comes from?
Is there a Torah precident for asking Hashem to avenge someones death?
I never heard this phrase until very recently and I'd like to know its


[Take a look at the Av Harachamim said on Shabbat before putting the
Torah away. You will find anumber of verses quoted with lines like: "Ki
Dam Avadov Yikom". Mod.]


From: Joseph Steinberg <steinber@...>
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 1996 22:39:56 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Silver 1/2 Shekels

In the USA it is easy to obey both the silver & 1/2 dollar shitot --
I give 3 1/2-dollar coins from 1964 or before -- all of which are 
..900-fine silver...
    | | ___  ___  ___ _ __ | |__      Joseph Steinberg
 _  | |/ _ \/ __|/ _ \ '_ \| '_ \     <steinber@...>
| |_| | (_) \__ \  __/ |_) | | | |    http://pages.nyu.edu/~jzs7697
 \___/ \___/|___/\___| .__/|_| |_|    +1-201-833-9674


From: <StevenJ81@...> (Steve White)
Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 10:08:49 -0500
Subject: The Cookies in the Mail

In #39, Elozor Preil writes, concerning delivery of chametz on Pesach:

>We in Bergen County had a similar experience two years ago (I believe)
>when Erev Pesach fell on Shabbos.  Our local paper, which many have
>delivered, decided to bless us that day with a free sample - of a new
>cookie product!
> We were instructed to carefully crumble the cookie into the toilet and
>dispose of it completely as soon as we got home from early minyan,
>before the z'man (time) when owning chametz would be prohibited.

Well, ok, but suppose the cookie came in the mail, which doesn't arrive
'till noon?  Or it came Monday, day 2 of chag?

Then Shlomo Grafstein writes:

>The gentleman who is worried that the hamantashen may not arrive before
>Pesach should make Kosher L'Pesach Hamantashen with Matzah Meal!! 

That's probably what you should do, if you _really_ have a fear that the
hamantashen wouldn't arrive until Pesach.  But of course there are
formal terms of service and informal expectations about the length of
time it should really take a package to travel, whether in USPS, Post
Canada, UPS, FedEx, or wherever.  Granting that you shouldn't send
chametz to a friend in the mail within a week or so of Pesach, what
happens when hamantashen from *a month ago* arrives?

Maybe hamantashen that old isn't even fit for consumption by a dog!



End of Volume 23 Issue 40