Volume 23 Number 60
                       Produced: Fri Apr 12  7:40:23 1996

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Is Korban Pesach allowed Bazman Hazeh? (2)
         [David Mescheloff, Ari Shapiro]
Korban Pesach B'zman Hazeh (2)
         [Zvi Weiss  , Nahum Spirn]
Tehillim (2)
         [Carl & Adina Sherer, Jay Rovner]
Temple Menorah
         [Barry S. Bank]


From: David Mescheloff <meschd@...>
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 16:13:54 +0200 (WET)
Subject: Is Korban Pesach allowed Bazman Hazeh?

On Tue, 26 Mar 1996, Gilad Gevaryahu wrote:
> A known talmid chacham asked me to post this qustion to the group. He is
> collecting information on this subject. (If the answer would have been
> straight forward he would not have posted it!)
> Is Korban Pesach allowed Bazman Hazeh?

As divine Providence would have it, that is to be the theme of my Drashat 
Shabbat Hagadol this week.  I regret that I cannot put all the details in 
writing.  One good reference I recommend is Responsa Tzitz Eliezer Part 12,
Siman 47, which provides references to many other sources.  Also of 
interest are She'erit Yosef part 3 siman 50, and Yesodei Yeshurun Part 6 
(I haven't the section numbers before me).
The question involves a large number of interesting halachic and 
practical issues.  The bottom line seems to be that it is permissible per 
se by some views (The Ntziv, for one), because this is not a sacrifice 
whose aim is "rayach nichoach", which G-d refuses to accept during the 
period of the destruction of the Bet Mikdash, and because the structure 
of the Bet Mikdash need not be standing for the bringing of sacrifices to 
be permissible.  On the other hand, numerous technical problems - no 
tehelet, uncertainty about kohanim, tum'ah, uncertainty as to the precise 
location of the mizbeah, and more - make the bringing of the korban Pesah 
strictly forbidden.  Worthy of note are the observations by Tzitz Eliezer 
(R. Eliezer Yehuda Waldenberg Shlita) that the opposition by members of 
other religions, and perhaps most important of all - disunity of the 
Jewish people on this issue - are the greatest obstacles of all, both 
from a practical perspective, a technical perspective (for other public 
korbanot it makes collecting the required half-shekalim impossible), and 
a substantial perspective.  ve-idach zil gemor!

Best wishes to all m-Jewish readers for a hag kasher ve-sameah!

David Mescheloff

From: <m-as4153@...> (Ari Shapiro)
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 96 10:03:07 EST
Subject: Is Korban Pesach allowed Bazman Hazeh?

Here are some of the the issues involved:
1) Where would we bring the korban?
2) Can we bring just the korban pesach?
3) Tumah (ritual impurity) issues
4) Issues about Cohanim

Definitions - Beis Hamikdash (BM) - the holy temple
                  kedusha - holiness
                  Cohein - priest
                  Korban - sacrifice
                  mizbayach - altar
1) Where would we bring the korban pesach? The question revolves around 
whether the Beis Hamikdash has kedusha(holiness) nowadays. If the Beis 
Hamkidash has kedusha then we can bring korbanos on the spot of the 
mizbyach (the altar) based on the principle of  Makrivin af ol pi she ain 
bayis (we can bring sacrifices even if the beis hamikdash is not standing).
However, if the BM (beis hamikdash) doesn't have kedusha then we would be
bringing the korban on a bama (an altar not in the beis hamikdash). 
However, the question is is this permissible? The mishna in Megilla 10a 
says Yerushalayim ain achareha heter, meaning that once the Beis Hamikdash
was built you are not allowed to bring a korban on a Bama (see Tosafos 
there).  Therefore if the BM has no kedusha (holiness) today then we cannot
bring korbanos period because any mizbayach even built on the spot of the 
mizbayach in the BM would be considered a bama. The Rambam (6,15 Beis
Habechira) states that the BM has kedusha today the Raavad there argues 
that it does not (see the Raavad there for a fascinating reason).The Ramban
(Milchamos Avoda Zara 52b) agrees with the Raavad for a different reason. 
The bottom line is that the discussion about bringing korbanos nowadays 
only can begin if we hold like the Rambam that the BM has kedusha.

2) The Netziv points out the following. By all Korbanos it says Reach 
Nichoach lashem that the Korban should give a fragrant aroma to hashem. 
However, in the Tochacha(rebuke) the Torah says v'lo ariach breach 
nichochachem (that I(hashem) will not smell the fragrant aroma of the
korbanos). Therefore the Netziv says since the galus has not ended we have
no right to bring korbanos (since hashem does not want them). However, 
there is one exception, by the korban pesach it doesn't say reach nichoach.
Therefore the korban pesach is the only korban we can bring. However, 
there is a problem. All keylim (utensils) in the BM need (including the
Mizbayach)  Chinuch (preparation). The gemara in Shevuos 15a explains
that although in the midbar (desert) meshicha(annointing) was mechanech
(prepared) the keylim, ldoros(forever) avoda (doing its task) is mechanech.
The gemara in Menachos 50a says that the avoda that is mechanech the
mizbayach is the bringing of the korban tamid shel shachar (the korban
which was brought every morning). Therefore before we can bring the korban
pesach we would have to bring the korban tamid to be mechanech the
mizbayach, but we can't because it says reach nichaoch by the korabn tamid.
(there are other issues also by the korban tamid such as it must be min
hatzibur (from the Jewish people) which would need the machatzis hashekel).
Inshort, the only korba we can bring is the korban pesach but in order to 
bring it we have to bring the korban tamid.

3) Tumah issues - We are all tamei mes (ritually impure from contact with a
dead body). However, a korban whose time is set like the korban pesach is 
doche tumah (can be brought anyway). However there still are some problems.
This principle doesn't apply to a tumah hayotzei migufu (an impurity caused
by an emission).  The Mishna in Pesachim 95b points out that a niddah, 
yoledes(woman who gave birth), a zav or a zava cannot eat from the korban 
pesach. Nowadays, although a yoledes (and a zav and zava in theory) goes to
the mikva this does not fully complete the tahara (purification process).
They still must bring a korban, and the Sdei Chemed points out (Maareches 
9) that since they have the status of mechusar kippurim (they have not
brought their korban yet) they can not eat from the korban pesach. 
Therefore all women who have given birth would be excluded from the korban
pesach. Also, since we are not careful about these things we may have to
consider all men a safek zav (a possible zav) and all women a safek zava 
and prohibit them too.

4) Cohanim (Priests) - All cohanim nowadays are cohanei chazaka (they are 
cohanim because they say so). Many acharonim (ie. see Magen Avraham 
Siman 457 ) claim that therefore they are only safek(doubtful) cohanim and
would not be able to do the work in the BM. Another issue is that for a
cohain to do avoda he must wear bigdei cehuna(special clothes).
Unfortunately we don't know what they look like and on almost every one of
the bigdei cehuan there is a 3 or 4 way dispute (Rashi, Ramban, Rambam,
Raavad) what it looked like. Another problem is that some of the bigdei
cehuna need techeles( special blue dye) which according to most we don't
have today. However, the Rambam(8,13 Keli Hamikdash) according to some
acharonim implies that for the bigdei cehuna any blue dye is okay (see the
Mirceves Hamishna there). The bottom line is that we cannot produce the 
correct bigdei cehuan today and the therefore the cohain would not be 
permitted to the avoda.

These are a small portion of the issues involved, as you can see they
are many. Hopefully next year we will be bringing the korban pesach in the
Beis Hamikdash Habnuya.

Ari Shapiro


From: Zvi Weiss		 <weissz@...>
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 09:03:57 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Korban Pesach B'zman Hazeh

Re Korban Pesach B'zman Hazeh --
Try the Netziv on Parshat Kol Hab'chor in the Sidra of Re'eh.. The NEtziv 
discusses the offering of the Pesach AFTER the destruction of the Beit 


From: Nahum Spirn <spirn@...>
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 11:14:08 -0600
Subject: Re: Korban Pesach B'zman Hazeh

        In MJ #55, Gilad Gevaryahu posed a question to the group about the
permissibility of offering the Korban Pesach in our day.  Rabbi Bleich deals 
with this topic at length in Vol. 1 of his Contemporary Halakhic Problems. 
See Chapter 12, pp. 244-269.


From: Carl & Adina Sherer <sherer@...>
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 00:02:33 +0200
Subject: Tehillim

Cheryl Hall writes:

>About a month ago, I asked about traditional chants for Tehillim, and haven't
>gotten any response. I'd like to recite Tehillim on a daily basis and I
>assume there is an extant chant to use. Am I wrong? Does everyone kinda of
>make it up as they go along? I've read in Encyclopedia Judaica that the
>music associated with the "trope" marks is now unknown.
>If there is a system, how does it work and how could one learn it?

I own a sefer called Taamei HaMikra, published by Eshkol here in Israel,
which includes music set to the notes for Tehillim.  Check with your local
Jewish bookstore.

Hope this is helpful

-- Carl Sherer

Carl and Adina Sherer

From: <jarovner@...> (Jay Rovner)
Date: Thu, 28 Mar 1996 11:10:29 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Tehillim

 Cheryll Hall asks about the melody used in the recitation of Tehillim,
having noted that the chanting of the unique trope signs for Job,
Proverbs and Psalms is a problem.
 I would suggest that the liturgical rendition of these books in
communities that chant them is based upon musical modes rather than
specific renditions of accents (tropes).  One reason for this suggestion
is based only upon upon the report of someone born in Morocco, and who
was attached to its music, that Job was chanted in the aforesaid fashion
on 9 Av.
 With regard to the specific question, Tehillim, and Ashkenazic (Eastern
European) traditions: Idelsohn, in his Thesaurus of Oriental Hebrew
melodies (I don't have the exact citation), notated a couple lines of
(Lithuanian?)  Psalm-chanting that sound like "Selihot" nusah, or the
nusah of Birkat ha-mazon as done traditionally (as opposed to the major
key rendition of the modern melody).
 On two occasions, I listened to an aged shamash, who had come into the
bet midrash before minhah on shabbat for private devotions; once he
chanted his tehillim in major mode (like on kabbalat shabbat), and
another time in the minor mode of the blessins of shema on Shabbat and
holidays, leaving me the impression that his mood determined his mode.
 Jay Rovner  


From: Barry S. Bank <bt492@...>
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 1996 16:52:40 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Temple Menorah

In a previous submission I stated that I had once read a article which
claimed that Rav Goren had seen the Temple Menorah in a room under the
Kotel, but that he was blocked from further investigation by the Wakf.
I promised to look for that article and submit it when found.  Well, I
didn't find it!  Instead, a friend of mine provided me with the
following article which he thinks appeared in the JEWISH PRESS sometime
in 1994.  It supports the contention that the Menorah is in the Vatican:

"In Search Of The Menorah
By Joseph D. Frager, M.D.

  On July 7, 1962, Oscar Goldman was given a rare glimpse of the
treasures of the Vatican.  No one knows why Oscar was chosen for this
distinction, but chosen he was.  All he told the Papal officials at the
time was that he was a Jew and was a student of theology.  Oscar may be
the only living person other than Vatican officials who know precisely
what is held in a dark room about three or four floors below the

  Unfortunately, Oscar's wife who had accompanied him has passed away.
Oscar himself is 80.  He studied at Yeshiva University many years ago
and is a devoutly religious man.  He talks in precise terms as he was
accustomed to do as electrical engineer and has documentation to prove
he was in the Vatican on the day he says.  He did not expect more than
to meet Pope John XXIII.  A Gentile business associate had arranged the
meeting to coincide with a vacation Oscar had been planning.

  Oscar remembers the room he was taken down to as though it happened
yesterday.  'I'm sure what I saw,' says Oscar.  The room was poorly lit
but Oscar remembers vividly seeing a number of artifacts including a
gold Menorah which stood about three feet by three feet in a corner.
There was no pedestal or tripod.  He was impressed by the fact that it
looked as though it could have been made out of one piece of pure gold.
Its branches were curved.  Its overall appearance was similar to the
Menorah depicted on the Arch of Titus except for the fact that there was
no base or pedestal.

  In addition to the Menorah, Oscar remembers seeing a wooden table
about eight feet long, the 'kiyor,' and a number of blackened-with-age
pans and pokers that could have been used in the Temple service.

  The visit only lasted a few minutes but Oscar has kept his memory
burning.  He was visited by a Polish Cardinal Wojeiech Adarniecki
several years ago.  The Polish Cardinal ostensibly was looking for a way
the Polish people could make amends for their complicity in the

  Oscar just wants to see the artifacts he saw on that fateful day be
returned to their rightful owners, the Jewish people.

  In order to assist Oscar in this mission, I have asked General Ariel
Sharon to raise the issue in the Knesset.  I have also asked the
Ambassador to the Vatican from the United States -- the Honorable Ray
Flynn (former Mayor of Boston) to aid the Jewish people and the State of
Israel in its quest to bring back the Menorah and the other Temple
utensils to Israel.  Senator Alphonse D'Amato has offered his help to
achieve this miraculous goal.  Thanks to Oscar Goldman, we may see that
this will come to pass."


End of Volume 23 Issue 60