Volume 23 Number 70
                       Produced: Thu Apr 18  7:19:05 1996

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

2 day Yomtov in the Diaspora
         [Yitz Weiss]
2 Days Yom Tov in the Diaspora.
         [Immanuel O'Levy]
Diaspora Yom-Tov
         [Avrohom Dubin]
Haham and Rasha (v23n68)
         [Mark Steiner]
More on the Haggadah and the Wise Son
         [R. J. Israel]
Pour out Thy wrath
         [Gershon Dubin]
Second Day of Shavuot and Sheechiyanu for Sefira
         [Myron Chaitovsky]
Sefirot Haomer/Shechiyanu
         [Ari Z. Zivotofsky]
Shaving on Chol Hamoed
         [Ari Shapiro]
         [Chaim Sukenik]
Two days of Shavuos
         [Akiva Miller]


From: <YitzW@...> (Yitz Weiss)
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 15:45:34 -0400
Subject: Re: 2 day Yomtov in the Diaspora

To me, the issue raised by David Portman of keeping either one or two days
depending on where you are physically makes logical sense. There is a basis
of opinion in halacha which relies on such logic - check the Tshuvos of the
Chacham Tzvi.
Yitz Weiss


From: <imo@...> (Immanuel O'Levy)
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 96 17:05:25 BST
Subject: 2 Days Yom Tov in the Diaspora.

In MJ v23n66, David Portman asked about 2 days Yom Tov in the diaspora,
and why how many days are kept seems to depend on an individual's
domicile rather than on where he happens to be on Yom Tov.

I have often wondered about this, and when I was in Yeshiva (Birkat
Moshe, Ma'aleh Adumim, Israel), I asked my Rov the following:

There is no sefaykah de'yoma (doubt as to which is the correct day) now
that the calendar has been set.  The reason we keep 2 days outside
Israel is on account of minhag avosaynu be'yodaynu.  Now, in the times
of the Sanhedrin, when they announced Rosh Chodesh, there was a sefaykah
de'yoma, and so those people outside Israel had no choice but to keep 2
days.  If an Israeli happened to be abroad over Yom Tov, he would have
as much doubt as the locals as to when the correct day for Yom Tov was,
and so he would have kept 2 days.  On the other hand, those people
outside Israel who came to Israel for Yom Tov would have kept one day,
as they would have known the correct day.  (It seems a bit unlikely that
they would have kept two days - would they, for example, have brought
two Korbanos Pesach?!)  If minhag avosaynu be'yodaynu is following our
forefathers' procedures even though circumstances have changed, then
surely the situations outlined above would be part of that minhag
avosaynu.  In that case, everybody outside Israel nowadays should keep 2
days, even if they are Israeli and on holiday and intend to return to
Israel, and everybody in Israel on Yom Tov should keep one day, even if
they are not Israeli and on holiday and intend to leave Israel after Yom

My Rov said that this was a good argument, but couldn't answer it.

It seems to my mind that it is a bit odd that on a particular day there
can be Jews who ride buses, write, conduct their business and so on, and
there are Jews keeping that day as a full-blown Yom Tov.  What's
happened to the principle of not differentiating oneself from the

If someone who is not a resident of Jerusalem is there on Purim, does he
keep Purim on the Jerusalem day or on the day when it is kept in his
home town?  I think everybody agrees that he keep it on the Jerusalem
day.  It seems that keeping Purim depends on where one is on Purim, and
not on where one lives.  Why, then, should keeping two days Yom Tov
depend on where one lives and not on where one happens to be?

Saying all that, there is a difference between the two days kept now and
the two days kept then.  Back then, a person keeping two days Yom Tov
would not have made a berachah on his matzah or marror - since there was
a doubt as to which day was the real day there was therefore a doubt as
to whether there was a mitzvah of matzah that evening, and if there is a
doubt as to whether one should or should not make a berachah, one
doesn't.  Nowadays, however, a berachah is made at both Sedorim.

  Immanuel M. O'Levy,                           |   Tel: +44 (0)171-209 6266
  UCL Dept of Medical Physics,                  |   Fax: +44 (0)171-209 6269 
  1st Floor Shropshire House, 11-20 Capper St,  | Email: <imo@...>
  London WC1E 6JA, Great Britain.               |  http://www.ucl.ac.uk/MedPhys


From: <AbePd@...> (Avrohom Dubin)
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 02:58:03 -0400
Subject: Diaspora Yom-Tov

The general rule is that people travelling from one location to a second
location who do not intend to permanently establish themselves in the
second location must keep all of the stringencies both of their
hometowns, as well as of the locale where they happen to find themselves
at a particular time.  This rule has applications outside of the YomTov
context as well.

Because the work-related prohibitions of YomTov are viewed as such
stringencies, this rule applies to them as well.  Consequently, visitors
to Eretz Yisroel are required to maintain these prohibitions as being
stringencies of their hometowns.  This has nothing to do with whether it
is in fact YomTov or not.  Only where there is a direct conflict between
the hometown observance and the local custom (such as with respect to
which Tefila to recite) do they follow the hometown custom exclusively.
Not working for one day longer than the natives is not considered a
"conflict" with their working.  Surely there are natives who do not
happen to be working on that day.

The converse is also true.  Contrary to an unfortunately prevalent
thought, residents of Eretz Yisroel who spend YomTov outside of Eretz
Yisroel are NOT permitted to do any work whatsoever (even in the privacy
of their rooms) on the second day of YomTov.  As explained above, this
is in deference to the local stringency.  This rule is clearly stated in
Shulchan Aruch (Code of Jewish Law) Orach Chaim 496:3.


From: Mark Steiner <MARKSA@...>
Date: Wed,  17 Apr 96 13:04 +0200
Subject: Haham and Rasha (v23n68)

	On the wise versus wicked son, I'd like to point out that in the
version of the Four Son passage in the Yerushalmi, and in ancient
haggadah manuscripts (I have facsimiles of some of them myself) until a
few hundred years ago, the last word of the question of the Wise Son was
"osonu" not, as in our sifrei Torah, "eschem."  I don't want to draw any
conclusions from this, except that according to the original manuscripts
the standard question concerning the wise and wicked son does not arise.
As for the descrepancy between Chazal and the Massoretic text of the
Torah, I open the floor to discussion.


From: <RJISRAEL@...> (R. J. Israel)
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 11:48:25 -0500 (EST)
Subject: More on the Haggadah and the Wise Son

To Whom Does the Wise Son Refer

The note on the Wise son in the Goldschmidt Haggadah and also 
quoted in the Glatzer Haggadah (Schocken) p. 26, which is based on 
it: "Has commanded you: The ancient sources of this midrash as
well as old versions of the Haggadah quote the verse as reading 
"...which our God has commanded us (otanu)," which is also the 
reading of the Septuagint translation. This version makes the 
contrast between the question of the intelligent son and that of 
the wicked apparent. In the Middle Ages the masoretic reading 
"has commanded you (etchem)" was introduced into the
Haggadah text. Commentators. then, tried to explain why
the phrase "you," used by both the wise and the wicked in their 
questions, militates against the wicked son,but not against the 
intelligent. This difficulty does not arise if we maintain the old 
Haggadah reading: "has commanded us."

The text "has commanded US" is the same one used in the 
Mechilata (Bo 19: amud 73), Yerushalmi Pesachim (10, 4, daf 37, 4) 
and in such old Hagaddahs as the Venice Haggadah, the Sarajevo 
Haggadah and the Prague Haggadah.

R. J. Israel


From: <gershon.dubin@...> (Gershon Dubin)
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 96 10:25:00 -0400
Subject: Pour out Thy wrath

> At last year's seder, among the mix of observance levels at the table,
> when it came to the paragraph "Pour out Thy wrath," after birkat
> hamazon, I was at a loss for words to explain, perhaps, the least
> "politically correct" aspect of the Haggadah.

	It might be instructive to point out that one of the attributes
of G-D is revenge.  Just read through parashas Haazinu, or any of the
neviim acharonim (later prophets) foretelling His revenge.  This is
carried through in the Talmud e.g. "great is revenge that it is placed
between two names of G-D".
	What is important to point out is that we don't take the revenge
into our own hands.  We pray to G-D to do so, and not for our honor but
for His: "on the nations who do not know You and kingdoms who do not
call in Your name"

	G-D is not obligated to be politically correct in the eyes of
the beholder.

<gershon.dubin@...>      |
http://www.medtechnet.com/~dubinG |


From: <MCHAIT.BROOKLAW@...> (Myron Chaitovsky)
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 16:26 EST
Subject: Second Day of Shavuot and Sheechiyanu for Sefira

 In response to the recent query about why a 2nd day of Shavuot if our
count from Pesach eliminates the sfekah d'yoma (calendrical doubt)
     In his marvelous sefer HaMo'adim B'Halacha (published, by Artscroll
or Mesorah,in English as The Festivals in Halacha ), Rav Yosef Zevin
cites this very question. He notes that the second day of Shavu'ot was
instituted by the sages so as to put this Chag on a par with other
Chagim,which are celebrated for two days.He also cites the Chatam Sofer
that in light of this, the second day of Shavu'ot is somewhat more
restrictive (chamur yoter) than the first day.
    He also discusses the Shehechiyanu query (Why none for Sefira) posed
    BTW, there are two recensions for the Omer count... BA'omer and
LA'omer .One is found in most ARTSCROLL siddurim/machzorim, the other in
the RCA edition (because it was Rav Soloveitchik's z"l version?)  Does
anyone know the SOURCE for the difference?


From: <azz@...> (Ari Z. Zivotofsky)
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 11:18:24 -0400
Subject: Sefirot Haomer/Shechiyanu

in the book Sefirot haomer by Tzvi Cohen (in Hebrew) in a footnote that
runs from page 115-120 he gives 14 different reasons why there is no
shechiyanu on sfirat haomer.


From: <m-as4153@...> (Ari Shapiro)
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 96 20:05:58 EDT
Subject: Shaving on Chol Hamoed

- Does anyone know the source from the Rav that would generate such a

The Rav is based on the Gemara in Moed Katan 14a that says wherever there 
is an Ones (something that could not be prevented) and everyone knows it is
an Ones then one is allowed to shave/cut their hair. Therefore the Rav said
that everyone knows that even if you shave before Yom Tov by Chol Hamoed it
will grow back (and it is obviously impossible to cut the hair on Erev Yom 
Tov that did not yet grow) therefore it is permitted. Not only that but he
went further, that if you are allowed to shave you have to shave so as not 
to be mnuval (look bad) on Chol Hamoed and the last days.
This is all spelled out in the Nefesh Harav by R. Shachter on p.189-190.

Ari Shapiro


From: Chaim Sukenik <sukenc@...>
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 10:14:19 +0200 (WET)
Subject: Shehecheyanu

The discussion of Shehecheyonu on Sefirat HaOmer, allows me to pose the
following question.

Among those who offer the reason of "simcha" alluded to by at least two
previous posters, is the Orech HaShulchan (OH) who writes: "One does not
make the bracha shehecheyonu [on counting sefirat ha'omer] because we
only make a shehecheyanu on a mitzva sheyesh bah simcha (that has in it
happiness). Here, to the contrary, we take note of the tza'ar (pain)
that it no longer is accompanied by sacrifices."

I am wondering how to reconcile this view of the OH with his own
statement in a discussion of the mitzvah of kisui ha'dam (covering the
blood of a slaughtered chaya (animal?) or bird). There (Yoreh De'ah 28),
in opposing the making of shehecheyanu on kisui ha'dam, the OH states:
"Only on a mitzvah shel simcha (happiness) or one which comes from time
to time, do we make Shehecheyanu." Clearly, the OH is saying that EITHER
happiness OR a regular cycle would be sufficient. Even if Sefiras
Ha'Omer doesn't have happiness, it does meet the "cycle" requirement, so
why no shehecheyanu?

A possible resolution might lie in distinquishing between "tza'ar" and
"lack of happiness"; i.e., a cyclic mitzvah gets a shehechayanu even if
it does not carry with it particular happiness, however, only if it
doesn't go so far as to contain an explicit sense of tza'ar. Thus, the
tza'ar which is inherent in counting sefirah negates any possible
shehecheyanu.  However, this resolution does not fit with the OH's use
of the phrase "mitzvah sheyesh bah simcha" in his sefiras ha'omer



From: <Keeves@...> (Akiva Miller)
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 23:02:40 -0400
Subject: Two days of Shavuos

Gary Goldwater wrote in MJ 23:62:
>The date of Shavuot is determined by the 7 week Omer count. How, then,
>could there develop a 2nd day of Shavuot? There could be no doubt about
>the exact date even in days of yore.

I have heard that this very argument proves that the laws of 2nd day Yom
Tov was NOT merely because of uncertainty in the calendar, but for other
reasons as well.

At first, before the Rabbis institutionalized the two days, people who
were far away *usually* observed two days of Pesach and Sukkos. I say
"usually", because there were some borderline areas, where they would
sometimes find out when Rosh Chodesh had occurred, and sometimes
not. (Note that a significant number of pre-Sukkos days are Yom Tov,
creating slowdown in the information flow which did not exist in the
days before Pesach.) Shavuos, though, occurs exactly 64 days after Rosh
Chodesh Nisan, and by then almost everyone knew when Rosh Chodesh Nisan
had occurred, so only one day was needed.

But later, the Rabbis decreed that all those places should consistently
observe two days of Yom Tov, and even on Shavuos, so that people would
not come to treat Shavuos lightly.

Sorry I can't cite any sources; all this is just things I recall from
over the years.


End of Volume 23 Issue 70