Volume 23 Number 71
                       Produced: Thu Apr 18  7:22:02 1996

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

A General Thought
         [Avrohom Dubin]
         [Akiva Miller]
Mechitza vs. Kiruv
         [Akiva Miller]
Sacrifices on a Private Altar
         [Zvi Weiss]
Sacrifices outside the Temple
         [Barry Best]
Wedding Chuppa
         [Andrea Stevens]
Welch's Grape Juice for Kiddush
         [Melech Press]
Welches Grape Juice For Kiddush
         [Binyomin Segal]
Yom Hazikaron - Real People
         [Mike Marmor]


From: <AbePd@...> (Avrohom Dubin)
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 02:58:06 -0400
Subject: A General Thought

Many, if not all, of the people who post questions to this group are
sincerely looking for answers to halachic and/or philosophical

Those who are fortunate enough to be in a position to respond to their
queries have an obligation to do so with respect and concern.

I think such people are done a serious disservice by responses that
begin "I once heard", "someone told me" and the like.  We are all aware
of the level of accuracy of hearsay.  It behooves those who presume to
answer such questions to take the time and look up sources and quote
them (yes - chapter and verse) so that the questioner has something that
he or she can read, research, verify, etc.

Would we bring our bosses answers based on hearsay if we were asked to
research a question?  A number of recent posts have gone so far as to
say "I think the Rambam says" or "I think the Gemora says."  The cited
volumes are widely available.  Either they say or they don't.

A simple show of respect for the questioner would require a responder to
forego being the "honor" of being the first to respond to a question
(based on hearsay) in favor of a more reasoned, researched and accurate
answer, albeit perhaps in a somewhat later post.

I hope I haven't overstepped and offended anyone.  No reference to a
particular post is intended.



From: <Keeves@...> (Akiva Miller)
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 23:08:32 -0400
Subject: Disciples

David Riceman asks in MJ 23:63
>4.  Are any of you disciples who can quote (or expand upon) your teacher's
>suggestions about how to be a disciple?

Many of my teachers at Ohr Somayach in Yerushalayim had a saying:

"If a student says 'the teacher said this, the teacher said that' --
That is no student; that is a tape recorder. A true student is one who
sees something which the teacher did not comment on, and declares 'the
teacher would have said this...'"

In other words, a true disciple is one who has internalized the master's
teachings, and can apply them to new things. I am sorry that I do not
remember the source for this concept.


From: <Keeves@...> (Akiva Miller)
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 23:05:44 -0400
Subject: Mechitza vs. Kiruv

Steve White wrote in MJ 23:53:

>This brings up an interesting question for "regular" mail-jewish: Since
>when is a "heter" required for a Rabbi to take a position in this type
>of shul for the purpose of kiruv?
>It seems to me that young graduating rabbis are no longer easily willing
>to go to communities like Wichita or Halifax, and I gather that at least
>part of the reason is that shul practices and communities are not "frum
>enough" for them.  So what happens to kiruv?  Is it better to concede
>these communities to non-Orthodox movements? Shouldn't young rabbis
>still be encouraged to spend some time in remote communities before they
>have children?
>(Or, put another way, and with all due respect to Rabbi Grafstein, whom
>I do not blame a bit, don't the Jews of Halifax still need kiruv, even
>if they don't have a mechitza?)

As far as I know, it is forbidden to pray in a shul that does not have a
mechitza. Yes, the Jews of Halifax (and everywhere) need kiruv. But it
is difficult to be a rabbi without davening with the
congregation. (Rabbi Riskin is one of the few who were able to succeed
in that - see his excellent article in "The Sanctity of the Synagogue".)
So we have two conficting ideals here - praying in a kosher shul, and
helping fellow Jews learn about Judaism.  Far be it from the individual
to decide such an important question for himself. That is exactly what
rabbis are for.


From: Zvi Weiss <weissz@...>
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 14:51:03 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Sacrifices on a Private Altar

> From: Jerome Parness <parness@...>
> In v23n62 Alan Silver wrote:
> > As far as I know (and I am fairly certain of this), once the Torah had
> > been given, Hashem gave a specific commandment that offerings could
> > *only* be brought in the Beis Hamikdosh and not on a private (ie
> > non-temple) altar. If you look through Tanach, I am pretty sure that you
> > will not find any offerings after Mattan Torah except in the Mishkon or
> > Beis Hamikdosh.
> 	In this I beg to differ.  Please see the Haftarah for the
> seventh day of Pesach, from 2 Kings, (I do not have it here in front of
> me, so forgive me for not having the verses as well).  In short, if you

 With all due respect, I beleive that this is a VASTLY incorrect
understanding of the Haftorah.  First of all, the Talmud states quite
explicitly that once the Beit Hamikdash was built ("Nachala") that the
Bamot were prohibited.  I am quite sure that the Sages of the Talmud
were aware of the Section of our Haftorah.  Secondly, it is not at all
clear from that Haftorah that the *Pascal* offering was brought on Bamot
once the Temple was built.

 Interestingly, the Netziv discusses in a coupel of spots in Sefer
Devarim *why* it was so tough for the people to "give up" their Bamot
(and why this was not an issue in the time of the 2nd Temple).  He
relates it to the notin of the Sacrifices being intimately tied to one's
"parnassah" (livelihood) at a time when the society was far more
agrarian than in the time of the 2nd Temple.

> read the haftarah, as well as all of nevi'im (Prophets) prior to this
> chapter, you will see that B'nei Yisrael did bring korbanot on Bamot,
> during various times and periods, up until the writing of that portion
> of the nevi'im.  Indeed, it states that from the time of the Shoftim
> (judges) until that time, Sefer Habrit (another name for Deuteronomy)
> had been hidden away in the Ohel Mo'ed and only that Pesach was the
> scroll found, read, and determined to state that the Korban Pesach be
> brought in the "place that I have decided to have may name rest there"
> (very rough translation).  It further states that this was the first
> time that there was a centralized korban Pessah.  This has been used by

 Please refer to the Commentaries on the verses in question.  It appears
that there are some inaccuracies in how this material is presented.  I
have seen the Malbim who pretty explicitly appears to reject the
approach suggested here.

> some, notably the excellent historian Paul Johnson, to claim that this
> was part of the power centralization plan of the House of David.  In any
> case, it is clear evidence that the Jews did bring the korban Pessah on
> bamot, private altars, for a very long time!

 As noted above, all that is clear is that Jews brought *some* Korbanot
on Bamot -- it is NOT obvious that the Pesach was brought on Bamot in
that manner.


> Jerome Parness MD PhD           <parness@...>
> From: <frankele@...> (Edwin R Frankel)
> Date: Mon, 15 Apr 1996 07:51:52 -0700
> Subject: Sacrifices on a Private Altar
> I don't think it is quite as simple as it may seem.  Yes, once built the
> Temple became the primary sacrificial center of our people, but until
> the time of King Josiah and his reforms it is unclear from
> historical/biblical records whether or not it was the only allowable
> site, although it ws certainly the primary site.

==> According to the Talmud, it *was* the only allowable site.  Further, 
the writers appear to NOT distinguish between the "private" Korbanot that 
were offered on Bamot-Yachid ("Private Bamot") and the "public" Korbanot 
that were offered upon **PUBLIC** Bamot even before there was a Temple.  
If the poster has a question about King Josiah and his "reforms", the 
Malbim provides a bried but succinct commentary on this matter.

> Certainly, however, after his time, there were not any other sites, and
> certainly not after Shivat Tsion.
> Perhaps the destruction by the Romans of the Bayit Sheni also brought an
> end to an era that Chazal recognized.  Until that era is retored with
> the building of the next Temple, it would be inappropriate, if not plain
> wrong from a halachic view, to even consider sacrifice anywhere.

==> Accroding to the Netziv, until the Mizbeach (alter) was actually 
plowed under (c.f. Netziv at end of Re'eh) by the Romans, the Pesach 
CONTINUED to be offered -- even though NO OTHER sacrifices were so 
offered.  Based upon that, the above conclusion is not at all obvious.



From: Barry Best <bbest@...>
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 96 15:24:00 EDT
Subject: Sacrifices outside the Temple

>...  Please see the Haftarah for the seventh [eighth] day of Pesach,
>from 2 Kings,...  you will see that B'nei Yisrael did bring korbanot on
>Bamot, during various times and periods, up until the writing of that
>portion of the nevi'im.

It would appear that although the practice of sacrificing in high places
("Bamos") seems to have existed well into the first Temple period, this
practice was not according to halachah and in fact the failure to
abolish them was a specific flaw of many Jewish monarchs.

See for example the kings of Judah that were praised for (generally)
doing that which was good in G-d's eyes *BUT* did not remove the Bamos,
e.g., I Kings 15:14 (Asa), I Kings 22:43 (Yehoshafat), II Kings 12:3-4
(Yehoash), II Kings 14:3-4 (Amatziah), II Kings 15:3-4, 15:34-35

See also I Kings 3:3 which says that Bamos were tolerated only becuase
the Temple had not yet been constructed (the context of the chapter is
at the beginning of Solomon's reign prior to the construction of the
Temple), implying that after its construction, Bamos would no longer be

This is only from a reading of the simple p'shat in Kings I and II, I am
not aware but am curious about any comments in the Talmud or later
commentators regarding this topic.


From: <als34@...> (Andrea Stevens)
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 23:48:23 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Wedding Chuppa

     Are there any specifications that a chupa must adhere to, i.e. in
terms of dimensions, cloth type, or anything else?  There is someone who
is thinking of having one made as a gift for a wedding.  Any info will
be greatly appreciated!
     Andrea Stevens <als34@...>


From: Melech Press <PRESS%<SNYBKSAC.BITNET@...>
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 96 20:49:36 EST
Subject: Welch's Grape Juice for Kiddush

David Brotsky asked about the use of Welch's grape juice for arba kosos
(and kiddush) because it is made from concentrate.  He is right that it
is problematic - such prominent poskim as the Minkhas Yitzchok and
Rav Shlomo Zalman zikhronam livrakha felt that one cannot make a borei
pri hagofen on such grape juice.  While others disagree, the general
rule of sofek brokha should apply and Welch's should not be used.

Melech Press
M. Press, Ph.D.   Dept. of Psychiatry, SUNY Health Science Center
450 Clarkson Avenue, Box 32   Brooklyn, NY 11203   718-270-2409


From: <bsegal@...> (Binyomin Segal)
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 1996 20:58:11 -0500
Subject: Welches Grape Juice For Kiddush

David Brotsky asked
 * Is there any problem using Welches Grape Juice for kiddush or the four cups
 * on Pesach. I have heard that there is a controversy over its use because it
 * is 'from concentrate'. Has this issue been resolved one way or another?

This is in fact a very good question. Rav Shlomo Zalman z"l wrote a tshuva
(printeed in minchas shlomo) that in fact forbids the use of juice from
concentrate. As far as I know he is the only modern posek to address this
in writing. (see Rabbi Forst's hilchos brachos and shmiras shabbos
k'hilchosa that both quote him).In fact, the cRc (chicago) has issued a
letter to that affect.

However, the OU has a written statement to the contrary. I spoke to Rabbi S
Feurst about the issue. (He is the Agudah Dayan in chicago. Among his other
qualifications - 2 that are specifically relevant in this issue - he has
yora yadin smicha from Rav Moshe z"l and for many years traveled to Israel
to get shimush from Rav Shlomo Zalman) He told me that
1. Rav Shlomo Zalman's psak is against the simple reading of Shulchan Oruch
2. Rav Moshe - though he never wrote a tshuva on the issue disagreed with
Rav Shlomo Zalman
3. The custom in the US is to be lenient - his proof (and this is a doosy)
it seems that for many years Kedem grape juice was from concentrate and
everyone here accepted and used it for kiddush.

Does that help?



From: Mike Marmor <mike.marmor@...>
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 1996 10:16:16 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Yom Hazikaron - Real People

(This query is on behalf of Lori Grysman, who teaches at Netivot Hatorah
Day School in Thornhill, Canada. It relates to research for a Yom
Hazikarom program she's preparing.)

Can anyone fill in the details of a story about an arab throwing a
Jewish woman and a grenade into a bunker at Gush Emunim in '48?
Apparently the arab told the woman to throw the grenade into the bunker,
and when she refused, he threw her in, along with the grenade, killing
all of the people inside. Does anyone know her name?

Does anyone know the name of any soldier who fell in '48, and some
details about him/her?

Does anyone know the name of any soldier that fell in the '56 war in
Israel, and some facts about him/her?

Any specific anecdotes that might relate to Yom Hazikaron would be

A prompt response is greatly appreciated. Thanks.

/Mike Marmor
Thornhill, Canada


End of Volume 23 Issue 71