Volume 23 Number 86
                       Produced: Mon May  6 23:22:52 1996

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

A General Thought
         [Yisrael Medad]
BA'omer and LA'omer
         [Steve White]
Ba- vs. LaOmer
         [Micha Berger]
Bonfires on Lag B'Omer
         [Alan Zaitchik]
Deposits on pop bottles (2)
         [Aaron Gross, Warren Burstein]
deposits on pop bottles
         [Harry Maryles]
Deposits on pop bottles v23 #80
         [Neil Parks]
         [Louise Miller]
Great Grandchildren
         [Saul Mashbaum]
How much Food can Aharon and Sons Eat?
         [Mechael Kanovsky]
Lag B'Omer Upsharin
         [Mia Diamond]
Lag Baomer
         [Stan Tenen]
Mitzvah Fair
         [Wendy Baker]
Rings and Washing
         [Schwartz Adam]
Use of Animals in Research
         [Amy Davis]
Yom Ha'atzma'ut
         [Steve White]


From: <isrmedia@...> (Yisrael Medad)
Date: Sat, 30 Mar 96 04:19:13 PST
Subject: Re: A General Thought 

If I am not mistaken, the reason why the Torah Sh'b'al Peh (The Oral
Law) was finally committed to written form was the very reason that was
pointed out: that too many students were either misinterpreting their
teacher's instructions and logic or simply couldn't remember what was
said ot the sources for decisions.  Even though, of course, the Talmud
is full of: "so-and-so said" and "I heard from...".

Yisrael Medad
E-mail: isrmedia


From: <StevenJ81@...> (Steve White)
Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 10:14:58 -0400
Subject: BA'omer and LA'omer

>From: Isaac Balbin <isaac@...>
>  |     BTW, there are two recensions for the Omer count... BA'omer and
>  | LA'omer .One is found in most ARTSCROLL siddurim/machzorim, the other in
>  | the RCA edition (because it was Rav Soloveitchik's z"l version?)  Does

Actually, this isn't quite right.  I don't know the nusach-sefard
volumes, but within the nusach-ashkenaz volumes:

LA'omer appears in the English language siddurim -- RCA and regular
BA'omer appears in the Hebrew-only siddur and the Pesach
English-language machzorim, both of which were compiled after the
English siddur

A change over time?  

Steve White


From: Micha Berger <aishdas@...>
Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 09:15:00 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Ba- vs. LaOmer

In v23n80, Isaac Balbin writes:
> It was not Rav Soloveitchik's version, to my knowledge. According to
> Nefesh Horav, he said both.

I remember the Rav mentioning this issue one year at the Elul
Yarchei Kallah shiur the Rav would give in Boston.

He also mentioned that the difference is related to to the question
of whether each night of Omer has its own mitzvah, or if counting
the entire Omer is one mitzvah. BaOmer, in the Omer, implies that
this is one count within the greater mitzvah of Omer. LaOmer, of/to
the Omer, grants a looser relationship between the night's count
and the Omer as a whole.

Our practice is based on leaving the question unresolved. If you
miss a day, we still tell you to count the rest of the Omer. If
each day is a separate mitzvah, then you have an opportunity to
get the future nights' mitzvos.  However, since it may be that you
are accomplishing nothing with the subsequent counts, we do not
make a brachah. Safeik brachos lihakeil -- we are lenient with
regards to doubts involving [most] brachos.

Since the question is unresolved with regard to missing a count,
the Rav also couldn't say which language is preferable.

However, if you missed a night, perhaps there is no point to saying
"BaOmer", in the omer. If counting is part of a greater whole,
there would be no point to the count you are currently making.

Micha Berger 201 916-0287        Help free Ron Arad, held by Syria 3427 days!
<AishDas@...>                     (16-Oct-86 -  8-Apr-96)
<a href=news:alt.religion.aishdas>Orthodox Judaism: Torah, Avodah, Chessed</a>
<a href=http://haven.ios.com/~aishdas>AishDas Society's Home Page</a>


From: Alan Zaitchik <ZAITCHIK%<INCDV1@...>
Date: Fri, 03 May 1996 15:31:39 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Bonfires on Lag B'Omer

Chaim Saiman asks about Lag B'Omer minhagim (customs). About the
bonfires I once heard the following, but I cannot vouch for its
historical accuracy.
 The lighting of fires during the spring was part of a pagan celebration
in Eretz Yisrael during the centuries preceeding the Islamic conquest.
When Islam took over the Arabs started their own bonfire lighting at
Nebi Samuel, and in fact Jews joined them in this. Later there was
further differentiation and Jews transferred fire lighting to Lag


From: <aaron.g@...> (Aaron Gross)
Date: Tue, 30 Apr 1996 20:30:03 -0700
Subject: Re: Deposits on pop bottles

And while we're at it, why isn't it assur to set aside empties for
returning after Shabbos?  Shouldn't one have to throw out returnables as
if they were regular garbage?

   Aaron D. Gross -- email:  <aaron.g@...>, aaron.gross@wla.com
   URL: http://www.geocities.com/RodeoDrive/1123  GEOCITIES COOL SITE: 9/24/95

From: <warren@...> (Warren Burstein)
Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 20:59:14 GMT
Subject: Re: Deposits on pop bottles

Perhaps the answer to the question is best obtained by asking the
manufacturer of the beverage.

From: <Harrymaryl@...> (Harry Maryles)
Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 09:48:43 -0400
Subject: deposits on pop bottles

In a message dated 96-04-30 22:48:48 EDT, you write:

>	I am an advid pop drinker, usually downing several bottles a 
>day.  Recently, I noticed that many bottles of pop in the Chicago area 
>say that there is a $.10 refund for your deposit in the State of Michigan.
>My question is simple.  Can I take bottles purchased in Illinois without 
>a deposit, to Michigan and recieve a refund?

NO! It is illegal (and therefore against halacha), dishonest and could
create a Chilul HaShem(desecration of G-d's name).
 Harry Maryles


From: Neil Parks <nparks@...>
Date: Wed, 1 May 96 12:57:55 EDT
Subject: Deposits on pop bottles v23 #80

>From: Chaim Shapiro <ucshapir@...>
>My question is simple.  Can I take bottles purchased in Illinois without 
>a deposit, to Michigan and recieve a refund?

If the stores in Michigan will take the bottles, sounds like a good 
idea to me.

The purpose of Michigan's deposit law is to encourage recycling.  It's 
better for the environment to recycle the bottles in Michigan than to 
dump them into a landfill in Illinois.

If enough people follow suit, the bottlers in both states will realize 
that it would pay them to lobby Illinois (and other states) to pass 
similar deposit laws.  Then more bottles will be recycled in all the 
states, and everyone's environment will be better off.

....This msg brought to you by NEIL PARKS      Beachwood, Ohio    
 mailto://<nparks@...>       http://www.en.com/users/neparks/


From: <miller@...> (Louise Miller)
Date: Wed, 1 May 96 09:17:03 PDT
Subject: Eruvs

Dear MJ'ers
  My husband is preparing a Shavuot talk on the topic of eruvs.  He has
plenty of "practical" material for the talk, but needs more historical
(ie source) material on where the concept of an eruv developed.
  (He already has the wonderful book put out by the Balto MD eruv
  He'd appreciate any help.

Thanks in advance,
Louise Miller and Herbert Levine
<levine@...> or


From: <mshalom@...> (Saul Mashbaum)
Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 07:53:41 EDT
Subject: Great Grandchildren

I am looking for a Rabbinic source that says that seeing one's great
grandchildren is a great merit that indicates that the person is
deserving of olam haba.  The Torah says specifically that Yosef saw his
great grandchildren, and the Midrash Bamidbar Rabba expands on this,
without the conclusion I am seeking.  Can a reader help me with
additional sources?

Saul Mashbaum


From: <KANOVSKY@...> (Mechael Kanovsky)
Date: Thu, 02 May 1996 15:02:48 -0500 (EST)
Subject: How much Food can Aharon and Sons Eat?

A question has been bothering me for the past few weeks (since parshat
shemini) and I have yet to get or see a good answer.
	When the mishkan was dedicated the 12 heads of the tribes brought
sacrifices as it is writen in parshat naso. Chazal as quoted in Rashi talk
about the korbanot that Aharon and his two remaining sons ate that day and
they include the korban chatat of Nachshon Ben Aminadav. Nowhere though is
discussed the other korbanot of Nachshon such as the 17 shelamim 
sacrifices that he brought (two cows and five sheep, goats and rams). From
Those korbanot the kohen gets the zeroah, lechayaim and keivah (front legs
the cheeks and the stomach) and only the cohen and his family are allowed
to eat these parts. Being that there were only three cohanim at that time
(Pinchas was not considered a cohen till much later) and also taking into
account that they had to eat 17 shelamim for twelve days in a row, how
were they able to eat all that meat? 
The three possible answers that I came up with were either a miracle
happened or that Aharon and his sons had scores of slaves or daughters
but nothing ofthat sort is mentioned, so I am still stuck.
mechael kanovsky


From: Mia Diamond <midiamond@...>
Date: Mon, 06 May 1996 22:30:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Lag B'Omer Upsharin

Lag B'Omer Sameach--
	Although it is a little too late to get to Meron this year, 
friends of mine are planning to make an ushparin for their oldest child 
in a few weeks. They have never seen one done, and have only been 
able to find a few minhagim relating to this ritual. I would appreciate 
it if mail-jewish readers could post any and all practices they may know 
of in connection with this tradition. Thanking you in advance,
						Mia Diamond Padwa


From: Stan Tenen <meru1@...>
Date: Thu, 2 May 1996 12:17:39 -0700
Subject: Lag Baomer

The practices of Lag Baomer are kabbalistic.  They all derive from the
same model.

The bonfire is the traditional tribal and peasant model of the eternal
flame.  The simplest structure is a tetrahedral stack of sticks that is
lit.  The tetrahedral form is naturally produced when sticks are stacked
vertically or horizontally.  An eternal flame usually hangs on three
chains.  The chains and the base also form a tetrahedron.  The "process"
equivalent to the tetrahedral "structure" is a 2-torus.  The torus can
be represented by a vortex shape - which looks just like a flame.
Together, tetrahedron and vortex, kabbalistically represent the "light
in the tent of meeting".  It is this same vortex form that becomes an
idealized Tefillin strap and that generates all of the Hebrew letters as
different views.

Archery enters the picture because the image of an arrow and a bow, as
well as "hair-cutting" are also part of the kabbalistic model of
creation.  There is no point in my trying to describe this in words.
You have to see it for yourself.  The kabbalistic hairs being cut are
the "hairs of the beard of Zer Anpin" upon which the primeval Torah was
written.  (see Kaplan's Yetzirah for a good translation, but don't
expect to see the pictures.)



From: Wendy Baker <wbaker@...>
Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 10:28:10 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Mitzvah Fair

As the volunteer in my synagogue who is in charge of the food
reclaimation and clothing drives.  I have a simple suggestion for the
Mitzvah Fair.  Have an "admission" fee of some non-perishable, sealed
food packages that will be donated to a local organization that can use
it. Tuna Cans are the easiest. Whether the donation goes to only Jewish
or to non-Jewish organizations is your call.  The kids might even do
some "research" into what organization to donate to, either in advance
of the fair or as part of it.  Not only will this activity help teach
the children, but it will actually help some hungry people.  

 Wendy Baker,
 Chairman of the Food-Funnel&Clothes-Line, 
 Lincoln Square Synagogue, NY


From: Schwartz Adam <adams@...>
Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 08:18:37 +0300
Subject: Rings and Washing

Does anyone know the source for NOT removing rings
for washing?  I've seen/heard that many people, who rarely if ever take
off their rings for anything, are not required to remove them
for washing Netilat Yadayim.  What defines a Hatzitza for this case?



From: <davisa@...> (Amy Davis)
Date: Wed, 01 May 1996 23:51:06 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Use of Animals in Research

Does anyone know what the halacha is surrounding the use and sacrifice
of animals for biomedical research?  If they can be used in some/all
research, is there any halacha surrounding how one should sacrifice them
so as to cause as little pain as possible?  Thank you.  Feel free to
respond to me privately.



From: <StevenJ81@...> (Steve White)
Date: Wed, 1 May 1996 10:15:02 -0400
Subject: Re: Yom Ha'atzma'ut

>From: Eliyahu Shiffman <RLSHIFF@...>
>Why did the same g'dolei hador (leaders of our generation) who
>instituted a special order of prayers for Yom HaAtzmaut not formulate a
>special prayer of thanks to be inserted in the brakha of Modim (thanks),
>at the same point as the Purim and Hanukka insertions?

I suspect there are two reasons.  One is that in general the ability of
later generations to modify the seder tefila outside the Shemone Esrei
(or outside the S.E. and the Shma and Berachot) is much greater than our
ability to modify the seder tefila WITHIN those core sections.

The second reason is that the Conservative movement DOES do just this.
And I think that often in modern times Orthodoxy avoids lenient but
halachically legitimate psak because Conservatism already does it, and
Orthodoxy doesn't want to be seen as "conceding" to Conservatism.

Now, I think the first of these two reasons is more important -- don't
get me wrong.  But does anybody besides me see the second reason at work
from time to time?  And if so, is this a halchically legitimate reason
for avoiding a halachically legitimate psak?

Steve White


End of Volume 23 Issue 86