Volume 25 Number 19
                       Produced: Mon Nov 18  0:40:20 1996

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Challah from a Breadmaker
         [Lon Eisenberg]
         [Adina and Carl Sherer]
Gender Relations and Creation
         [Adina and Carl Sherer]
Maariv after Yom Kippur
         [Ken Miller]
Religious Bird Watchers
         [Benyamin Buxbaum]
         [Russell Hendel]
Switched Coats (2)
         [Ken Miller, Yussie Englander]
Switched coats
         [David Charlap]
The intercalculation of the new month (Molad)
         [Lili Pauli]


From: Lon Eisenberg <eisenbrg@...>
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 08:02:15 +0000
Subject: Challah from a Breadmaker

Stuart A. Cohnen (Stuart Cohnen @212-327-7509) wrote:

>I have a different question. How does one take Challah? Can you stop the
>mechanism (on a weekday) and remove the challah to be burnt separately?

The size of the loaf in a standard breadmaker (1-2 lb.) is nowhere near
the size needed to take hallah.  IMHO, it would be "bal tashhith"
[waste] to do so.  If you bake 3 or more loaves (and then put them
together), you would need to take hallah, which can be done even after
the bread is completely baked.  In fact, in this case, it seems as
thought that is the only way to take hallah, since the obligation of
taking it never arises until after the baking is complete and they are
all together.

Lon Eisenberg   Motorola Israel, Ltd.  Phone:+972 3 5658422 Fax:+972 3 5658345


From: Adina and Carl Sherer <sherer@...>
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 22:57:19 +0000
Subject: Esrogim

Jerrold Landau writes:

> Jay Kaplowitz asks where else are Esrogim grown aside from Israel.  I
> have used an Esrog from Morocco several times in the past.  It had a
> pale green colour, unlike the usual bright yellow we are used to from
> the Israeli Esrogim, but the shape and symmetry were perfect, and there
> were no blemishes.

I think it's time for you to come visit us for Succos.  Most of the 
esrogim here are actually green.  Most of the yellow ones get 

-- Carl Sherer

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer


From: Adina and Carl Sherer <sherer@...>
Date: Thu, 31 Oct 1996 22:57:17 +0000
Subject: Gender Relations and Creation

Michael and Abby Pitkowsky write:

> I feel that many of the recent prohibitions about interraction between
> the sexes are not required by halachah.  Recently there was a request
> for El Al to provide flights with only male attendants and no female
> stewardesses.  While I am all for satisfying the customer, is this
> really required by halacha?  There are numerous prohibitions in the
> Shulhan Aruch which have been interpretted away by most of the religious
> world such as that against women teaching young children because of
> their fathers who would come to pick them up and single men, divorced
> men and widowers from teaching children because of their mothers who
> would come to pick them up (Even HaEzer 22:20). 

Actually I don't think this has been quite as "interpreted away" as 
you make it out to be.  At most of the cheders in Yerushalayim, the 
boys have male teachers from the age of three for precisely this 

-- Carl Sherer

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer


From: Ken Miller <kgmiller@...>
Date: Wed, 13 Nov 1996 09:46:39 -0500
Subject: Maariv after Yom Kippur

Regarding the recent discussion why we ask for forgiveness a scant few
seconds after Yom Kippur has concluded:

My wife suggests a very clear and simple answer to this problem: It is
said that "the Season of our Repentance" (new phrase! how do y'all like
it?) ends not at Neilah, but rather on or about Shmini Atzeres. We see
this in many examples, such as for someone who was unable to do Tashlich
or Kapparos prior to Yom Kippur, and can do it then. So although the
*intensity* of our repentance will drop off after Neilah, there is no
reason why it should stop *entirely*, and so in fact it does continue
into Maariv.

My only problem with this idea is that I have seen in several places
(yeah, but can I find them? nooo...) that on Yom Kippur one should NOT
repent for the sins of a prior year because it demonstrates a lack of
faith in Yom Kippur's power of atonement. If that is so, then what is
the status of the period between Yom Kippur and Shmini Atzeres? Can we
do Tashlich or not?

(Note: When I write about the Season of Repentance ending at a certain
time, I hope no one responds by pointing out that repentance is a good
idea at all times. What we are talking about is not repentance in
general, but specifically repentance for sins done last year.)

Akiva (and Ilene!) Miller


From: Benyamin Buxbaum <buxbaum@...>
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 1996 23:34:31 GMT
Subject: Religious Bird Watchers

Dear Mail Jewish,

If anyone knows of a frum bird watcher, preferably male and in Israel,
please contact me.  It involves helping a frum teenager intergrate his
birdwatching into his religious background by relating to him on his level.
The family lives in Israel and the boy is l7. 
Tefilla Buxbaum


From: <rhendel@...> (Russell Hendel)
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 15:36:52 -0500
Subject: Surprise

Gevaryahu claims that YIPALAY does not mean surprise.

1) If it only meant "MARVEL" than according to Gilad we would have
 a proof that God can MARVEL (which has the same tone of can God be

2) According to the dictionary and theosaurus MARVEL and SURPRISE are
basically the same in meaning

3) I asked several people in synagogue this morning and they 
said they saw no problem with YIPALAY = SURPRISE(The point of
this is that Gevaryahu has not given an adequate alternative)

rhendel @ mcs drexel edu


From: Ken Miller <kgmiller@...>
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 11:12:34 -0500
Subject: re: Switched Coats

To prevent people from taking my coat by mistake, I usually do something
to it so that the other person will immediately say, "Hey, this isn't
mine." Usually I either run the belt thru a sleeve, or close a few
buttons, or leave something heavy in the pocket (we have an eruv).
Writing one's name in a garment will help you get it back, but it does
very little to prevent the mistake from occurring to start with.

From: <Jsph26@...> (Yussie Englander)
Date: Sun, 17 Nov 1996 00:59:56 -0500
Subject: Switched Coats

Chaim: It is kind of funny that you asked this question. On Friday
nights i coordiante/go to a shiur in my shul that is given on the
teshuvos of Rav Moshe Feinstein. My Rabbi, who gives the lecture,
haapened to pick a teshuva from Rav Moshe that contained this
question. The Teshuva is contained in Chailek Ches of the set of Igros
Moshe, this is the Chailek put out by Rav Moshe's Grandson. In the
teshuva, I believ Rav Moshe writes, that if you know for a fact that the
owner of the coat that is left is the one that took your coat, then it
is permissible to "borrow" his coat until the two of you can exchange
coats. I will look up the exact place of the teshuva, and if necessary
correct myself if i am mistaken on the information i just gave you.  

All the best!!!!!!

-Yussie Englander

From: David Charlap <david@...>
Date: Fri, 15 Nov 1996 19:15:10 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Switched coats

Chaim Shapiro <ucshapir@...> writes:
>	Here's a common occurence.  You're at Shul on shabbos when you
>realize that somone accidentaly took your coat instead of his.  Its a
>cold day, and your first thought is to borrow the others guy coat that
>was left in lieu of yours.  But, can you?  Your coat was taken by
>accident, No genaiveh involved.  But, if you take his coat, you are in
>effect knowingly borrowing a coat that is not yours without permission.
>Is the fact that he accidentaly took your coat any excuse??

Here's what I'd do.

I'd wear his coat and walk to his house to return it.  Once there, I
could get mine.  This avoids the problem.  You're not stealing his coat,
but are returning it to him.  The only problem I can think of would be
that you are wearing it en route, and this might give others the false
impression that he loaned you his coat or that you are stealing it.  On
the other hand, there is a positive mitzva to return lost merchandise,
which is what you are doing.

-- David


From: Lili Pauli <phenya@...>
Date: Sun, 3 Nov 1996 21:17:16 +0200 (IST)
Subject: The intercalculation of the new month (Molad)

Subject: The calculation of the times of the new moon (Molad in Hebrew)
The first dispute over the intercalculation of the new month which is
recorded can be found in the Mishnah of "Rosh Hashannah" . Chapter 2
Mishnah 8 towards the end and Mishnah 9 discuss the dispute between
Rabbi Yehoshua and Rabban Gamliel. The conclusion was ruled by Rabbi
Akiva - "If we desire to dispute the Court of Rabban Gamliel, we must
dispute against every Court that has arisen from the days of Moses
until now."  Currently, there is a dispute between the Karites and the
Jewish world.  The Karites intercalulate the months according to the
visibility of the moon and the exact time of the appearance of the
Molad. I was told by a good friend of mine who is a Karite that our
Molad is a few hours early.  I am a bit lazy about looking up absolute
astronomical records in the U.S.  Naval Observatory Yearbook so I waited
for the eclipse of the sun which occurred on Shabbot 29th of Tishrei
5757. The eclipse started to occur at least 8 hrs after the Molad.
 Bearing this in mind, I asked the Torah Genius,Rav Chaim Kamyefski
Shlita(son of the Stippler) about the fact that the eclipse occurred
after the Molad. He replied that the Molad was an average time and not
an exact time.
 I deducted from his words that the time averaged out due to the fact
that Yom Kippur cannot fall either Erev or Motzei Shabbos and therefore
our times are relative. Which brings us back to the dispute in the
Mishnah.  I do believe that when the Temple will be rebuilt - speedily
in our days - that we will go back to true observation times and then
the calendar will be determined accordingly to Rabbi Yehoshua which will
be close to the observed times.
 If you chose to comment since I am not a Jewish E-mail subscriber
please send a direct copy to: <phenya@...> May the Moshiach
come speedily in our days through repentance and not though the war of
Gog and Magog. - Richard (Rachamim) Pauli


End of Volume 25 Issue 19