Volume 25 Number 20
                       Produced: Thu Nov 21 20:08:20 1996

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Challah from a Breadmaker
         [WIlliam Page]
Davening for the Umid
         [Larry Haber]
Gifted Children and Jewish education
         [Daniel D. Stuhlman]
Minhag Avoteynu Beyadeinu
         [Israel Pickholtz]
Switched Coats (3)
         [Chaim Shapiro, Shlomo Godick, Michael & Bonnie Rogovin]
Was Eisav a rasha ?
         [Zvi Y Goldberg]
When Modesty and Economic Rights Collide
         [Russell Hendel]


From: WIlliam Page <Page@...>
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 08:38:56 -0600
Subject: Challah from a Breadmaker

Stuart Cohnen asks "How does one take Challah [with a breadmaker]? Can
you stop the mechanism (on a weekday) and remove the challah to be burnt

My breadmaker has setting that stops the machine after the dough rises
once.  I then take it out, braid it, and refrigerate it until I'm ready
for the second rise and for baking (in the oven).
 So, you could take challah in the usual way, if you were making enough
bread.  I only use 3 cups of flour in my machine, so I don't take

Bill Page  


From: Larry Haber <larryhaber@...>
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 21:35:54 -0500
Subject: Davening for the Umid

I have recently had the misfortune of becoming an "Ovel" (mourner).
Since my congregation is aging, there are currently five of us in this
unhappy situation.  I was wondering if any of you would be kind enough
to e-mail me the answers to the following questions.  I will compile the
answers and make the answers available for anyone who wants them.

1) What procedure does your congregation have in place to assure an
equitable distribution of davvening among the ovelim?

2) What is the policy regarding strangers and non-members of the
congregation who have yahrzeit, or are also ovelim, and ask for the
privilege of davening for the umid.  I, personally, feel this is very
chutzpahdik, however, there are some who feel they have this right over
the regular attendee and/or member of the congregation.

Please tell me the name and location of your congregation so that I can
avoid duplication.

I appreciate your help.  Thank you.

<larryhaber@...> (Larry Haber)


From: <ssmlhtc@...> (Daniel D. Stuhlman)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 09:31:40 -0600
Subject: Gifted Children and Jewish education

We have a five year old child who is gifted and it seems that the
schools are not equipted with the desire to guide this kind of student.
We would like to get in contact with other parents of gifted children to
learn how they are educating their children.  We would especially like
to find other gifted children in the Chicago area for my son to meet.

Please send me private e-mail to: <DDStuhlman@...>


Daniel D. Stuhlman
847-982-2500(voice), 847-674-6381(fax)
email: <ssmlhtc@...>
voice mail: 847-674-5518


From: Israel Pickholtz <p2o5rock@...>
Date: Tue, 19 Nov 1996 12:18:24 +0200 (IST)
Subject: Minhag Avoteynu Beyadeinu

The notion of minhag avoteynu beyadeinu (our fathers' customs are
entrusted to us) is a fairly powerful one.  Most obviously it supercedes
the Torah commandment of tefillin on the extra day of the three

People treat this concept with great respect regarding nusach of prayer,
pronunciation, rice on Pesah and dozens of "little" things.  ("What, me
sit down for lecha dodi?? - minhag avotai beyadai!!")

So how come when it comes to tefillin on Hol HaMoed - which is practiced
in galut by many people - EVERYONE in Israel accepts the local custom of
not putting on tefillin?  (A Torah commandment.)  Shouldn't there be a
logical kal vahomer that says if a visitor from galut cancels tefillin
on the day after a festival "just" because of minhag avotav, a person
cannot cancel tefillin on Hol HaMoed IN CLEAR VIOLATION of minhag

(Changing the number or hours between meat & milk is not comparable, as
shelom bayit is - or should be - even more important that mihag

Israel Pickholtz
(who didn't put on tefillin on Hol HaMoed, even in galut)


From: Chaim Shapiro <ucshapir@...>
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 13:50:14 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Switched Coats

	Yussie, thanks for the reply, your information is most helpful,
but, doesnt solve the problem I was once faced with.  First of all when
my coat was switched on the last day of pesach two years ago, I assumed
that the coat which was left was that of the person who accidentaly took
my coat.  However, I have no way of being absolutly certain.
Furthemore, if it was indeed the same person who borrowed my coat, I can
only assume he was a guest from out of town.  My coat was a little
diffrent from most (it was grey most are blue or black).  I had never
seen a coat similar to mine prior to that occasion, and I never saw one
again.  I checked back every week to see if it the individual with my
coat returned.  He never did.  The issue quickly changed from wearing
the coat home (which i didnt do) to keeping the coat permanatly in
exchange for mine!
	Now, I eventually took the coat (which btw was smaller than mine
forcing me to remove all the lining in orderr to make it wearable).
but, not until the shul told me that pursuant to their policy on
clothing left in shul, were about to confiscate the coat anyway.
	Which also leaves me with an interesting question.  Considering
that the coat that I got is smaller than mine, and I certainly would
much prefer my coat which I can wear on cold days with the lining
intact, what happens if I go to shul some day and see my old coat????
Can I demand it back, or should i assume we were both myaish our coats
and now retain ownership of the coats we now have?

From: Shlomo Godick <shlomog@...>
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 1996 13:23:59 -0800
Subject: re: Switched Coats

Chaim Shapiro wrote:  

> Here's a common occurence.  You're at Shul on shabbos when you
> realize that somone accidentaly took your coat instead of his.  Its a
> cold day, and your first thought is to borrow the others guy coat that
> was left in lieu of yours.  But, can you?  Your coat was taken by
> accident, No genaiveh involved.  But, if you take his coat, you are in
> effect knowingly borrowing a coat that is not yours without permission.
> Is the fact that he accidentaly took your coat any excuse??

The following is not intended as an answer to the previous question, but
runs along similar lines and may be instructive.

I once accidentally "exchanged" tefillin covers with another davener at
a shul that I almost never daven in.  After returning to daven there a
couple more times I lost hope of locating the fellow using my tefillin
cover and returning to him his (I really did not know his identity and
could only vaguely inquire among the congregants there).  I asked Rav
Rubin of Rehovot (rosh machleket ha-kashrut and moreh tzedek of Rehovot)
what to do.  He quoted an acharon (I forget the name) to the effect that
in such a situation where the two accidentally exchanged articles are of
similar value and there is no hope of locating the owner, one may use
the exchanged article instead.  (I do not think an actual "kinyan" is
involved here.  Rather, it appears that one receives a 'heter
hishtamshut' to use the other's article but the ownership status of each
article remains unchanged).


Shlomo Godick
Rechasim, Israel
Email: <shlomog@...>

From: Michael & Bonnie Rogovin <rogovin@...>
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 21:32:23 -0500
Subject: Switched Coats

Chaim Shapiro asks the question: if someone accidently takes your coat
from a coat rack in shul, can you wear their coat (at least until you
can exchange them), assuming it is very cold out.

THis is a variant of a question discussed by Rav Moshe z"tzl in the most
recent edition of Iggrot Moshe, in which he discusses the question of
what happens when you discover that you *took* someone else's coat home:
can you wear it back to shul (or to the rightful owner's home).  As
discussed by Rabbi Adam Mintz in a recent drasha, (and based on my
recollection) Rav Moshe poskins that, assuming that it is likely that
you have in fact switched coats with one other person, (as opposed to a
dry cleaner, where you may have been given person A's coat while A may
not have yours, there being too many coats involved to be sure), it is
permissible since it is an even exchange.

I certainly do not intend to poskin on the question asked, but suggest
that interested persons refer to the tshuva in Iggrot Moshe for possible
guidance as to the relevant halachot.  I would personally prefer an
alternative (sending someone else home to get another coat, for

Michael Rogovin


From: <zg@...> (Zvi Y Goldberg)
Date: Wed, 20 Nov 1996 00:14:17 EST
Subject: Was Eisav a rasha ?

	I have a friend who insists that Eisav was not really a wicked
person. He says that you can not take the p'sukim and midrashim at face
value. Eisav on his level was a sinner. It is inconceivable that the
grandson of Avrohom and the son of Yitzchak could be so wicked.
	[ You find a similar idea by the famous story of the sons of
Shmuel, about whom the navi says they committed adultery !  However the
Gemara in Shabbos states, "Anyone who says the sons of Shmuel sinned is
in error!".]
	Although I do not agree with this wholeheartedly, I would like
to hear your views on this subject.



From: <rhendel@...> (Russell Hendel)
Date: Mon, 18 Nov 96 19:43:34 EST
Subject: When Modesty and Economic Rights Collide

Michael and Abby Pitkowsky along with Carl and Adina Sherer recently
(e.g. Vol 25-#19) discuss the "propriety" of making stewardesses "only
male" on El Al flights (apparently for reasons of Tzniuth). This is
connected with a similar issue of whether Cheder teachers should be
restricted by gender.  Finally this whole issue is placed in a broader

>> many of the recent prohibitionis about interraction between the
>>the sexes are not required by halachah.

I wish to emphasize that halachah and Jewish Hashkafa consider men and
women economic equals---a goal of any society is to see that each gender
has the same rights in the working place. In this respect, Jewish
Hashkafa and American law are the same.

Where Jewish Law and American Law differ is in whether there can be
non-economic social differentiation between men and women: American law
says no while Jewish law says yes.

I am sure I need not give examples of social areas where only men can
function: Only men can be kings, judges, witnesses, cantors, Rabbis,
etc. And, according to strict talmudic law one is prohibited to accept
money for these functions (and even today one can only possibly accept
the money one "would have earned at an ordinary job" had one not been
involved in the function).

However in economic laws women are equal or better: Examples might be
right of road laws (Rambam Murder 13, 11-12), charity (Gifts to Poor, 8,
15), priority of appearance in courts(Sanhedrin 21)....

Without taking sides in the school-teacher issue I point out that since
boys and girls are usually equal in number in any population it follows
that male and female teachers would get equal compensation even if there
was a gender match.

The only real exception I know to the above are rules governing prison
guards(you can't have male guards over female captives or prisoners) but
there it is because of the power they have.

Returning to El Al and their stewardesses: It is totally contrary to
halachah and Jewish hashkafa to interfer with a women's right to earn a

I dedicate this posting to Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya...may he have a
speedy recovery and grow up to write postings like those of his parents.

Russell Jay Hendel, PH.d, ASA, rhendel @ mcs drexel edu


End of Volume 25 Issue 20