Volume 25 Number 58
                      Produced: Sun Dec 29 13:55:32 1996

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Arlington National Cemetery
         [Ari Z. Zivotofsky - FAM]
Beer for Havdala (was Chamar Medinah) (2)
         [Carl Sherer, Zev Sero]
Beer for havdala on motzai pessach
         [Yehuda Aryeh Moses]
Beer for Havdala on Pesach
         [Adam Schwartz]
Chamar D'Medinah -response to Carl Sherer 56:26
         [Myron Chaitovsky]
Chamar Medina
         [Shlomo Godick]
Drinking on Purim
         [Rachi Messing]
Geneological Chart of the People in Tanach
         [Claire Austin]
Proper Pronunciation
         [Berl Nadler]
         [Yosef Bechhofer]
Sources for Zevachim, Tzadikim
         [Mois Navon]
Torah Tidbits
         [Catherine S. Perel]
Wheelchair-Accessible Mikva in  Jerusalem
         [Sarah Shiffman]
Wine for Havdala
         [Menashe Elyashiv]


From: <azz@...> (Ari Z. Zivotofsky - FAM)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 96 12:14:56 EST
Subject: Arlington National Cemetery

   There has been some question on MJ whether there are any Jews buried
in Arlington. So here are some numbers. Arlington National cemetery was
established in 1864. it covers 612 acres with 18 miles of roads within
its gates. There are currently about 244,000 people buried there and an
average of 20 funerals take place daily. There are at least 2400 Jewish
buried there, 2009 (as of 2/96) who served in this country's
military. Some of the first soldiers interred there were five Jews who
fought and died for the Union during the Civil War.


From: Carl Sherer <sherer@...>
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 1996 00:45:53 +0000
Subject: Re: Beer for Havdala (was Chamar Medinah)

On 27 Dec 96 at 15:45, Zev Sero wrote:

cs> Could you explain the origin of your custom to use beer for Havdala 
cs> on Motzei Pesach? This strikes me as a difficult custom to keep as 
cs> one would normally not have beer in the house right after the Chag 
cs> (and, at least here in Eretz Yisroel, it would be difficult to go and 
cs> buy it for several hours after the Chag).
> The Shulchan Aruch (OC 296) says that chamar medina may only be used
> if wine is not available.  I haven't seen any exception for the nine
> days.  However on motzei pesach one may use beer even if wine is
> available (which it generally is), since - having abstained from
> beer for a whole week - it's now `chaviv' to the point that this
> `chavivut' overrides the usual preference for wine.  Of course, this
> only applies in those countries where beer is chamar medina.  If it
> isn't chamar medina, then it doesn't matter how `chaviv' it is,
> havdala can't be made over it.

This does not, however, solve the problem of making havdala on Motzei 
Pesach on Chametz.  If you have beer in your house that you sold 
before Pesach then min hastam (apparently) you would have to wait at 
least an hour or two for your LOR to buy it back.  If you go to a 
store to buy the beer, you would have to find one that is owned by a 
goy or you would confront the same problem.  Where I live, there are 
not too many stores owned by goyim.  Hence, I asked for the origin of 
the minhag.

-- Carl Sherer, Ramat Shlomo, Yerushalayim

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer

From: Zev Sero <zsero@...>
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 19:06:51 -0800
Subject: Re: Beer for Havdala (was Chamar Medinah)

Adina and Carl Sherer wrote:

> Pesach on Chametz.  If you have beer in your house that you sold
> before Pesach then min hastam (apparently) you would have to wait at
> least an hour or two for your LOR to buy it back.  

Would you?  Where I come from, the Rabbi goes to buy back the chametz
the minute yomtov is over.  By the time most people have finished
maariv and gone home, he's already bought it back.  

In some communities it's customary to have a seudat mitzva at shul on 
the last day of pesach, which can go into the night.  Once the stars 
are out, it is permitted to drink chametz at this meal, even though 
it's still yomtov for the participants, and they will have to say 
yaale veyavo in birkat hamazon.  I have actually seen this done.
Source: Orach Chaim 291

> If you go to a store to buy the beer, you would have to find one 
> that is owned by a goy or you would confront the same problem.  
> Where I live, there are not too many stores owned by goyim.  

True.  Most places where Jewish minhagim evolved, however, are
not like your place.

> Hence, I asked for the origin of the minhag.

I may not have made myself clear before.  The minhag is mentioned
explicitly in Orach Chaim 296.

Zev Sero		Don't blame me, I voted for Harry Browne


From: Yehuda Aryeh Moses <moses@...>
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 1996 10:39:06 +0200
Subject: Beer for havdala on motzai pessach

In my youth one of my Rabonnim told as that many year ago in Yerushlim
it was custmary to make havdala on beer for the reason of ba'al tossif
(not to add). Since the chiyuv is only seven days not to eat chametz by
making havdala on beer one is showing that pessach is over. The way they
got over the technical problem of having beer after pessach was that
there was one liquer store (owned by Yossef Bagad's father) that right
after pessach would go buy it's chometz back and sell to whom ever
wanted to make havdala on beer.

Yehuda A. Moses 
Business Opportunities Department - Israel Export Institute
29 Hamered St. - Tel-Aviv 68125 - Israel
Tel:972-3-5142876 ; Fax:972-3-5142852


From: Adam Schwartz <adamsch@...>
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 1996 09:03:53 +0200
Subject: Beer for Havdala on Pesach

Carl Sherer asks Binyomin Segal

> Could you explain the origin of your custom to use beer for Havdala 
> on Motzei Pesach?

I read that the Vilna Gaon had this custom and saw it as a way to
demonstrate that his not eating chametz on Pesah was only due to a
divine commandment.  As soon as chametz becomes permissible, he liked to
drink pure chametz.  sorry but i dont remember the source.  I dont know
how he solved the logistic problem of obtaining beer so soon after the



From: <MCHAIT.BROOKLAW@...> (Myron Chaitovsky)
Date: Fri, 27 Dec 1996 12:28 EST
Subject: Chamar D'Medinah -response to Carl Sherer 56:26

I'm surprised that you are unaware of the German  minhag to use Beer
after Pesach. This is something  that I thought all non-yekkes {Jews of
non-Germanic ancestry or rite} learned about if they only passed within 
5 miles of YU (given its proximity to the "Breuer Kehilla").

In any case, beer, by its nature is the ultimate chametz--somewhere ,in
a non-halachic source, I have seen it referred to as "liquid bread". As 
such, it serves as the  quintessential sign that one can now use one's
Chametz. As you point out,however, if you've sold your Chametz
communally,or need to wait for stores to open, your havdallah is,
necessarily, somewhat delayed.


From: Shlomo Godick <shlomog@...>
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 1996 17:46:01 -0800
Subject: Re: Chamar Medina

Dr Isaac Balbin wrote:

> The problem is that the decent wines cost quite a deal of money (in
> Australia for example, a bottle of Baron Herzog or JB. Furst costs
> upwards of $15.) Also, a decent red (as opposed to white) is even
> harder to come by.

In Eretz Yisrael we have good, inexpensive wines.  The wines of the
Shmita Year (3 years back) were so excellent in quality that Carmel
Wines wanted to export them (which the halacha prohibits doing).  They
were sold at wholesale-level prices fixed by the Otzar Beis Din (about
$1.70 a bottle) in cartons of 12 bottles.  According to some rishonim,
you fulfill a mitzvah every time you eat or drink food/beverage with
k'dushas shvi'is.  (If you want to use shmita wine for havdalah, you
must be careful not to extinguish the flame of the havdalah candle in
the spilled wine.)

Another nice side benefit of living in Eretz Yisrael ...

Steven Oppenheimer wrote:

> Rav Chaim Pinchas Scheinberg, shlita, however, does permit the use of
> soda as Chamar Medina.  ( See Radiance of Shabbos and also Shut Divrei
> Chachomim)
> Shut Divrei Chachomim also writes that Rav Yosef Shalom Elyashiv,
> shlita, permits soda as chamar medina as does Tzitz Eliezer.  ( See Shut
> Divrei Chachomim, page 86).

Please be careful about using the word "soda".  In the U.S., soda
usually refers to a sweetened, carbonated beverage (Coke, Pepsi, etc.).
In Israel, soda refers to soda water or seltzer.  Were the above poskim
refering to Coca-Cola or seltzer?  (If Rav Elyashiv actually used the
word "soda" in his psak, then he certainly intended to mean "seltzer"!)


From: <rachim@...> (Rachi Messing)
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 1996 01:26:37 EST
Subject: Drinking on Purim

I know it's a bit early, but a friend of mine has to do a paper for
school on drinking on Purim.  If anyone has any ideas (legal
ramifications, underage drinking, sleeping instead) that they could
please Email to me it would be greatly appreciated!

- Rachi

[Send a copy here as well, sounds like an interesting topic, unless your
friend will submit a copy of the paper electronically here when
finished? Mod.]


From: <czca@...> (Claire Austin)
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 96 18:57:47 -0500
Subject: Re: Geneological Chart of the People in Tanach

>From: Tirzah Houminer <tirzah@...>
>This led us to wonder if anyone had ever prepared a
>computer generated geneological chart of the people in the

I started this project (it gets quite involved - and very educational!).
I haven't looked at it for a while.  Even having someone review the
accuracy of it would be a job in itself.

Claire Austin


From: Berl Nadler <bnadler@...>
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 20:51:42 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Proper Pronunciation

On the question of proper havara, I once had the privilege of hearing the
Rav (Rabbi Joseph B. Soloveitchik)speak about the question of the proper
havara in the context of a shiur in masechet nedarim(Boston,late 1970s).

While the Rav also stressed the significance of mesora (as do Rav Yosef and
Rav Moshe) he was of the view that one should use the havara first learnt in
childhood (girsa d'yankusa) and with which one was most comfortable. In this
context he gave the example of his Israeli grandchildren who ,properly in
his view, used havara sefaradit for tefila even thou he couldn't necessarily
understand what they were saying. Yet, he thought it was entirely
appropriate for them to use this havara.


From: Yosef Bechhofer <sbechhof@...>
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 21:42:44 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Shukkling

> From: <Finkelmans@...> (Eliezer Finkelman)
> In the course of our discussion, I recalled a Hasidic master's answer to
> the question, "Why do your followers move when they pray, while you stay
> still?"
>   As I remember it, the Hasidic master answered with a daring
> comparison, more or less: "When a man first gets married, he does now
> know exactly what to do to please his wife.  It takes some thrashing
> about.  An experienced married man knows exactly what his wife needs,
> and hardly has to move at all."
> But naturally, I cannot remember where I saw this source.  Do you think
> any of those who read mail-Jewish can find the source for me?

Less more than more :-) (Although the similarity is sufficient that I
shall not quote the text here!)

The source is Tzava'as HaRivash (Rivash here = -R-eb -Y-isroel -B-a'al
-S-hem), a Kehos (Lubavitch) re-issue of collected statements in the name
of the Ba'al Shem Tov, siman 68 (p. 21 in the 1982 edition, edited by
Rabbi Immanuel Schochet that is before me.)

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer


From: <mnavon@...> (Mois Navon)
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 1996 16:34:58 +0200
Subject: Sources for Zevachim, Tzadikim

I am looking for sources for two ideas:

1) The term "Zevachim" (sacrifices) in the Torah is referred to with out 
any qualifier the intent is "shlamim" (peace offerings).

2) One of the qualities of a tzadik (righteous individual) is that he 
can see G-d's hand in all events working positively on both a 
personal and global level (i.e. he is matzdik (justifies) God's 
actions, ala "gam zu l'tova" (this too is for the good)).  And 
furthermore that really only the true tzadik is at such a level of 

Any responses please mail direct to <mnavon@...> as well as the 
MailJewish list.

Thanks in advance,
Mois Navon.


From: Catherine S. Perel <perel@...>
Date: Sat, 28 Dec 1996 20:42:21 -0600
Subject: Torah Tidbits

There is an error in the note on Torah Tidbits (vol. 25, No. 46).  To
subscribe, write <listproc@...> and write

subscribe torahtidbits <your name>

The addresses listed in the previous post, is that of the moderator.

  Catherine S. Perel


From: Sarah Shiffman <sarash1@...>
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 96 13:47:29 PST
Subject: Wheelchair-Accessible Mikva in  Jerusalem

There is a mikva for disabled women in Jerusalem, in Baka at Rehov
Gideon 7.  I have the home phone numbers of several women who work
there, and I will be happy to provide them on request.  The mikva itself
is not easy to find, but it is completely wheelchair accessible once you
find it, and the staff are incredibly helpful.

Sarah Shiffman
Beit Shemesh


From: Menashe Elyashiv <elyashm@...>
Date: Sun, 29 Dec 1996 11:01:11 +0200 (WET)
Subject: Wine for Havdala

See the Talmud - Pesahim 113. R.Yohanan said...and he that makes Havdala
on wine receives Olam Haba. So its worth the effort! I agree with Avi &
machmir always to use wine. 

                                   Menashe Elyashiv Bar Ilan U. Lib 


End of Volume 25 Issue 58