Volume 25 Number 83
                      Produced: Fri Jan 17  8:43:00 1997

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Chevron and fasting
         [Akiva Miller]
Earliest Sources
         [Carl Sherer]
         [Leah Wolf]
India: Information Request and Halachic Clarification
         [Chaim Sukenik]
Mosheh and Va-yedaber
         [Yisrael Dubitsky]
         [Ruth E. Sternglantz]
Selling Chametz
         [Sam Gamoran]
She'hecheyanu on Yom Tov
         [Carl Sherer]
Standing / Sitting during Kiddish
         [Carl Singer]
Standing for Kiddush
         [Yisrael Medad]
Standing/sitting for kiddush
         [Tara Cazaubon]


From: Akiva Miller <kgmiller@...>
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 10:15:07 -0500
Subject: re: Chevron and fasting

I am reading several postings about how very uninformed we are, those of
us outside of the Holy Land. And I was just about to post back, asking
where we can find more information about these fasts. Can you send this
info to our moderator for quick dissemination, or perhaps there is an
already-existing mailing list we can sign up for?

And then, I read the very next posts in MJ 25:72, and I see that Ben
Waxman and Avraham Husarsky both point out that today, Erev Rosh Chodesh
Shvat, was declared by several rabbis to be one of these very fasts.
Though it is already 10 am, and I've already done breakfast, I am hereby
joining this fast. It may not count as a full fast, but I will do what I
can to join my brothers and sisters in this difficult time.


From: Carl Sherer <sherer@...>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 21:28:00 +0000
Subject: Earliest Sources

Sam Saal asks:

> If this is the case, it seems to me to explain why there was no
> discussion of Mechitza till as late as the 9th Century (either women
> generally didn't go to shul or when they did, a mechitza was - of
> course - in place).
> Does Mechitza truly follow this paradigm? Or was it an innovation in
> the 9th century (or so).

Mechitza is actually mentioned in the Mishna, albeit not specifically as
a requirement for a shul.  The Mishna in Succa 5:2 refers to the Kohanim
and Leviim going into the Ezras Nashim and making a "tikun gadol".  The
Gemara there (51b-52a) indicates that the tikun gadol was a mechitza.
This was an innovation for the Simchas Beis HaShoeva (which is the
Mishna's topic).

-- Carl Sherer

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer


From: <ldwolf@...> (Leah Wolf)
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 97 07:02:29 PST
Subject: RE: Hevron

Responding to Arnie Lustiger's posting, you are right. We must keep
davening for a Yeshua as only Hashem can bring us one.

Having just come back from weekly davening at the Meara, where I have BH
the Zchut of feeling the Kdusha of Mearat HaMachpela, I still contend
there is something we can do in addition to davening.

We must show HaShem that we YEARN for Eretz Yisrael and we must, as
Torah Jews, do it with our feet whenever possible. Mitzvat Yishuv Eretz
Yisrael Shkula KeNeged Kol HaMitzvot. It's almost 50 years that Aliya is
probably the easiest it's ever been in our history and yet the majority
of Jews have still chosen Galut.

I pray that each and every one of you is Zocheh to live in Eretz Yisrael
soon. For those already here, may we be Zocheh to welcome our families
and friends at the airport when they come on Aliya. Israel is no longer
swamps of quicksand and it's time for us all to jump into this wonderful
Homeland.  I'm convinced that the ramifications of a massive Torah Aliya
would bring the Geula...Or so I pray:-)!

Please feel free to write me if there's anything I can do to help you
take that vital step. Maybe we can get "Garinim" of mail-jewish readers
filling El Al planes!!

Chodesh SHVAT Tov to all and SheNishma BeSorot Tovot for all of Klal

Leah Wolf


From: Chaim Sukenik <sukenc@...>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 09:30:05 +0200 (WET)
Subject: India: Information Request and Halachic Clarification 

[Part two has interesting potential for mail-jewish, so I'm
cross-posting the full message there, and sending part 1 to mj-announce
as well. Mod]

This post consists of two parts: 1) I expect to have to travel to New
Delhi, India soon and need advice about both kashrut and shabbos
facilities there. All responses on- or off-line gratefully appreciated.
2) Acknowledging that people have widely varied personal standards of
kashrut, I am wondering about the validity of the following advice: It has
been suggested to me that the very observant Hindus are painstakingly and
consistently careful about not consuming any animal products (including
meat, fowl, fish, eggs). On this basis, the suggestion has been raised
that a Hindi restaurant might be an acceptable solution for shomrei
kashrut in India. a) Is it factually true that all ingredients used in
such places would pass muster from a kashrus perspective? b) Does the
institutional nature of a restaurant in any way mitigate the problems of
bishulei akum? Might this be combined with the fact that most vegetables 
are eatable in raw form and are thus not included in this gzeira? c) Would
such bread (and/or other baked goods) qualify as pas paltar? d) In
general, of what status are the religious convictions of a non-Jew in
granting him/her a chezkas kashrus (halachic reliability)?
Much thanks for any help and/or guidance,


From: <dj8qc@...> (Yisrael Dubitsky)
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 17:27:19 EDT
Subject: Mosheh and Va-yedaber

 A friend recently alerted me to an intersting phenomenon on which I
hope members of MJ may help shed light:
 There are about 80 times in the Torah when the following phrase occurs;
 "VA-YEDABER H' el Mosheh (ve-el Aharon) (le-mor)" While this occurs
once with Noah and once with Yehoshua` it is never found with other
prophets; instead the common phrase is "Va-yehi devar H'..." or
"Va-Yomer H'...." (the latter, of course, often used with Mosheh as
 My friend opines (despite Rambam, Moreh I:65) that Va-yedaber reflects
an intimate communique, worthy of only one whom H' can say "panim el
panim ADABER." Va-yomer, apparently, reflects something less Divinely
 Any comments? suggestions? references?
Yisrael Dubitsky


From: Ruth E. Sternglantz <sternglz@...>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 01:19:44 -0500 (EST)
Subject: re: Plagiarism

I have been following this thread on plagiarism by frum college students
with great interest, and I've watched it mutate into a thread on
plagiarism by Yeshivishe college students.

As a frum woman (who attended a secular university with a large frum
population) who teaches at a secular university and who has a good deal
of experience with plagiarism/cheating, allow me to share some

1) There are at least two issues here--why do frum college students
cheat, and why has the fear of Chilul HaShem [to oversimplify, the
desecration of G-d's name, brought about when a Jew behaves
inappropriately in public] stopped being a factor in our behavior?

2) Many college students cheat, in big and in small ways.  Students
generally cheat because they have learned to view this sort of behavior
as a viable alternative to honest work.  Indeed, they have learned that
in school, cheaters prosper.  Quite honestly, I don't think that kids
buy termpapers or steal exams because they see dishonest politicians and
community leaders.  They do it because their classmates do it--and they
get A's, and they don't get caught.  All types of students cheat, and my
experience suggests that this behavior (in spite of the legends) is, in
fact, less widespread in the frum population than in the outside world.

3) If teachers do nothing to stop the cheating, we are complicit in it.

4) Of course, the original issue was--how can frum students justify
cheating?  They can not.  And this of course opens a whole different can
of worms--why is the fear of Chilul HaShem not a factor in behavior, or,
put more positively, why are those of us who do spend time in the
outside world not more careful to generate Kiddush HaShem [the
glorification of G-d's name]?  I don't want to even mention the
implication of "there's no Chilul HaShem if I don't get caught" because
it horrifies me.

This applies to all Jews, regardless of head covering.  It is possible
that there is a *perception* that this problem is more widespread in the
Yeshivishe population than in other frum populations in secular colleges
because the Yeshivishe students tend to move in more insular groups and
so stand out (ie, so three yeshiva guys in a class who cheat will leave
a greater impression than the other five random cheaters).

Kol tuv,
Ruth Sternglantz


From: Sam Gamoran <gamoran@...>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 14:22:10 +0000
Subject: Re: Selling Chametz

> From: Carl Sherer <sherer@...>
> Subject: Selling Chametz (was Beer for Havdala on Motzei Pesach)
>> Benjamin Waxman writes (regarding using beer for Havdala on Motzei
>> Pesach):
>> As for the technical problem of where to get the beer-if it was sold
>> to a non-jew before Pesach, with the stipulation that beer reverts to
>> its original owner immediately after the holiday, then there is no
>> problem.
> If I'm not mistaken, this would not work for purposes of mechiras
> chametz (selling chametz).  I believe that chametz must really be sold
> and *cannot* revert automatically to its owners on Motzei Pesach, or
> else it would not be deemed sold.  See OH 448:3 and the Biur Halacha
> there starting "mechira gmura" (which says that the chametz must
> explicitly be *repurchased* from the non-Jew after Pesach, i.e. that it
> cannot "revert automatically").

As I understand it, the sale can be made "to automatically revert
ownership" as follows:

The sale is a full unconditional transfer of ownership effective erev
chag (the day before Passover) for which the non-Jew makes a token
down-payment.  The Chametz is completely his/hers.  However, PAYMENT of
the balance due, full market value of the Chametz, must be made by
motzei chag, the end of the Passover holiday, and if the non-Jew is
"delinquent" then, the contract may stipulate that ownership reverts to
the Jews.

Of course if the non-Jew takes the Chametz during the holiday and

Sam Gamoran
Motorola Israel Ltd. Cellular Software Engineering (MILCSE)


From: Carl Sherer <sherer@...>
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 23:50:05 +0000
Subject: She'hecheyanu on Yom Tov

David Merzel writes:

>  Since a married woman is generally yotzai - fulfills the obligation
> [of] kiddush with her husband's kiddush, if she has already said
> she'hecheyanu while lighting candles, then when he says it during
> kiddush it does not fulfill any chova for her.  In fact, it would seem
> that (except, perhaps, for R. Akiva Eger's mild reading of Ya'avetz)
> if she were to answer amen to her husband's she'hecheyanu, it would be
> an impermissable hefsek - interruption - between her hearing of
> kiddush and drinking from the kiddush cup.

See the new "Sefer HaZikaron Mevakshey Torah" in memory of R. Shlomo
Zalman Auerbach zt"l, Siman 3 Number 5 (Page 36) where it is brought
down that R. Shlomo Zalman paskened that a woman who made a
She'hecheyanu when she lit candles is not considered to have made a
"hefsek" (interruption) by answering Amen to the She'hecheyanu in
Kiddush.  He bases this upon, among other proofs, the fact that the
poskim do not warn women against answering Amen to Leishev BaSucca (the
blessing over sitting in the Succa - women are not obligated to sit in
the Succa) as being an interruption before drinking from Kiddush on
Succos (the blessing of Leishev BaSucca comes after the blessing on wine
but before the wine is drunk).

-- Carl Sherer

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer


From: Carl Singer <CARLSINGER@...>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 97 22:39:57 UT
Subject: Standing / Sitting during Kiddish

Like many, I follow my Father's (ztl) mihag re: this (and most
everything else.)  But when a guest in someone else's home - I do as
they do -- stand / sit / or both.  This seems socially most acceptable
and courteous.

On rare occasion I've had a guest in my home who has made it a point to
note that their minhag is different than mine and acted accordingly (in
my case, stood while I sat.)  Does anyone have any comments / sources
re: this phenomena -- that is NOT doing what your host does.  I don't
know that it's yotzai mean haklal, but it sure isn't comfortable.

Carl Singer


From: <isrmedia@...> (Yisrael Medad)
Date: Fri, 12 Jan 96 19:33:55 PST
Subject: Standing for Kiddush

Further to the inquiry about standing/sitting, I have another request.

It usually happens that family members are reading while waiting for the
wine to be pured and everything set up.  So when I call out "Kiddush" to
a) alert them that I'm about to start and b) to make sure that I am
"yotzei" them by drawing their attention to my words, not everyone comes
close to the table.  I feel that all should be assembled about the table
and not just listening from where they happen to be.
 Is there any source for this that would deflect their anger away from
my demands to some gadol:-)?
 Yisrael Medad
E-mail: isrmedia


From: Tara Cazaubon <tarac@...>
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 10:14:42 -0800
Subject: Standing/sitting for kiddush

When I eat at the local Chabad rabbis houses, they stand for the whole
kiddush until they actually put the cup of wine to their lips, and then
sit down while they are drinking so they finish drinking while seated.
I figured this is done to cover all their bases, so to speak. :-)



End of Volume 25 Issue 83