Volume 25 Number 91
                      Produced: Thu Jan 30 23:08:02 1997

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Hypertension and Kosher Chicken
         [Gershon Klavan]
Hypertension and Kosher chicken (MJ digest 519)
         [Mottel Gutnick]
Kashered Chicken and Sodium content
         [Ari Z. Zivotofsky]
Loss of milk hechsher on Garelick Farms "Natural" Milk
         [Jonathan Abrams]
OU symbol on imported products in Israel
         [David Neustadter]
Shark's Cartilege (in Milk)
         [David A. Guberman]
Shark's Cartilege (was Cheese) (3)
         [Adina and Carl Sherer, Yaacov Fenster @ZKO3-2/T43, Cynthia


From: Gershon Klavan <klavan@...>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 11:44:40 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Hypertension and Kosher Chicken

Rav M.D. Tendler supposedly said (I heard this from Rav David Miller)
that (in relation to people with hypertension and the like) one can use
non sodium salts for salting meat.  Afterall, Salt is salt.  (however,
one must be careful as to the choice of salts, some salts can be much
more dangerous than sodium!)

Gershon Klavan

From: Mottel Gutnick <MottelG@...>
Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 01:36:47 AEDT
Subject: Re: Hypertension and Kosher chicken (MJ digest 519)

Some twenty years ago, I was studying Yoreh Deah (the section of Jewish
law dealing with these sorts of questions) in preparation for receiving
smicha, with my grandfather, Rabbi Osher Abrahamson, o.b.m., who was a
Dayan and a Posek in Sydney. (i.e. he served on the city's Beth Din, and
was regularly referred questions of Jewish law on which to pass.) Whilst
I was there, he was once called to the phone to answer exactly that
question (not a common one) -- that is, what should someone do if he is
required to eat meat but cannot, on doctors orders, tolerate the
slightest trace of salt. After giving his answer, he returned to the
table and asked me what I would have answered to the question, which was
directly related to the topic we were learning at that time. I
immediately answered the following, which he approved. (Note: in that
particular case the questioner stated that he could not tolerate any
salt at all.) Note, also, that I do not give this now as a "psak"
(ruling); this should be given by a Rabbi to whom the details of the
particular case are made known and whose ruling is formally sought. But
as a guide to the possibilities, this is one:

The patient, or patient's carer, should cut up the raw chicken or meat
(which has been slaughtered, and passed as kosher, but has not yet been
salted to "kasher" it) into small, bite-sized pieces. Rinse the pieces
from surface blood, then cook them as follows: Boil some water in a
large saucepan. Whilst the water is boiling, drop the pieces into the
boiling water by stages, slowly enough and in quantities small enough
that the water should remain on the boil. Once all the pieces have been
added, let them cook until ready, then serve.

For the technically minded, the halachic basis for this answer is that
the prohibition of consuming the blood that salting is designed to
remove, namely, the blood that remains embedded in the meat after the
circulatory blood has already been drained in the process of shechita
(kosher slaughtering), applies only to blood "shepirash mimakom
lemakom", i.e. blood that is made to "run" by, e.g., gradual cooking,
cutting or chewing. Instant cooking of such blood before it "moves", as
is the case when the heat immediately penetrates right through the
thinly cut pieces, removes such embedded blood from the possibility of
such a status.

Mottel Gutnick, Melbourne, Australia.


From: <azz@...> (Ari Z. Zivotofsky)
Date: Wed, 29 Jan 97 13:36:56 EST
Subject: Re: Kashered Chicken and Sodium content

On Jan 25 Lisa Halpern asked about the problem of kashered chicken
having a high sodium content. This was addressed in an article in JAMA
Journal of American Medical Association) on Dec. 7, 1984 (vol. 252,
no.21). I'm not sure the page, but it is by Burns, and Neubort and
called "Sodium Content of Koshered Meat". They state that resoaking beef
or veal lowers the sodium contet below that of non-koshered beef or
veal, but resoaking chicken only lowers the sodium content slightly such
that it is still well above the level for non-koshered meat.


From: Jonathan Abrams <cont4y31@...>
Date: 15 Jan 1997 15:05 EST
Subject: Loss of milk hechsher on Garelick Farms "Natural" Milk

Responding to Jeremy Nussbaum's posting
>In our day of complicated food technology, even
>fresh fruits and vegetable can have kashrut questions associated with
>them, so it is very helpful to have people conversant with the food
>processing industry and with kashrut keeping an eye on what is going on,
>even on "safe" items.

Excellent point.  I am not that knowledgable on the pre-market
processing of fresh fruits and vegetables but our local Va'ad Ha'Kashrut
here in Ottawa has mentioned in its pamphlet that one needs to be
careful of the waxing of fresh fruits and vegetables.  These waxes are
used to give the produce a nice shiny appearance to make it more
appealing for the market.  Apparently there may be non-kosher
ingredients in the waxes used by the food industry and therefore it is
important to wash produce well before eating it, not only for the health
reasons involved but for kashrut as well.  I personally have noticed
abundant waxing on certain types of fruits.  It is often very noticable
on grapefruits and apples.  Thanks for the information, much
 T'Izcho L'Mitzvos
Jonathan Abrams


From: David Neustadter <david_neustadter@...>
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 08:17:10 +0200
Subject: OU symbol on imported products in Israel

I thought the attached correspondence with the OU might interest other 
people who do their grocery shopping in Israeli supermarkets (the 
Vebbe Rebbe is the OUs kashrut and halacha e-mail hotline):

> Author:  <bergc@...> (Cheri Berg - P/R)
>> From:          <david@...> (David Neustadter) 
>> To:            <kosherq@...>
>> Subject:       OU symbol on american products sold in Israel      
>> I have noticed numerous products on the shelves of supermarkets in 
>> Israel with one of the following:
>> - an OU symbol on a hebrew label on an imported package that has no 
>>   english label
>> - an OU symbol on the hebrew sticker on an imported package that 
>>   has no OU symbol on the english labeling
>> - an OU symbol and the words "kosher pareve" on a hebrew sticker on 
>>   an imported package on which the english label says OU-D and has 
>>   powdered milk listed in the ingredients. (this one in particular 
>>   was Thomas' English Muffins)
>> I would like to know if the OU has any control over the use of its 
>> symbol on hebrew labels in Israel, and if the OU symbol can 
>> generally be relied upon on hebrew labels.  In the meantime, my 
>> personal policy, based on my experience, has been to ignore OU 
>> symbols found on hebrew labels, and only to trust the OU
>> symbol if I find it on the english labeling. 
>> Awaiting clarification,
>> David Neustadter
> Thank you for your inquiry to the (U) Vebbe Rebbe.  In response to 
> your question:
> There has been some abuse of the O.U. symbol in Israel by importers
> who paste on a label with the O.U. We are taking a very aggressive
> position on this matter and are working together with lawyers and
> government agencies to put an end to these unscrupulous practices.
> In the interum we would agree that an O.U. on the english label is
> the best guarantee of authenticity.
> Sincerely,
> The Vebbe Rebbe


From: David A. Guberman <djguberman@...>
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 15:40:02 -5000
Subject: Re: Shark's Cartilege (in Milk)

	Carl Sherer asks about the Boston dairy--Garelick--that decided
to use shark cartilege in at least one line of its milk.  As I
understand the case, its decision had nothing to do with any supposed
anti-cancer benefits.  Rather, the dairy wanted to be able to advertise
that this milk was "all natural," in contrast to competitors' milk that
added certain vitamins through "artificial" means. Since other milk is,
and was, available with approval from the Va'ad HaRabonim, I don't know
whether the use of shark cartilege subsequently received approbation.
(Also, I understand that Garelick produces milk for sale, not under its
own name, that is not "all natural" and that, therefore, do not contain
shark cartilege.)

David A. Guberman         <djguberman@...>

From: Adina and Carl Sherer <sherer@...>
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 15:43:45 +0000
Subject: Re: Shark's Cartilege (was Cheese)

On 10 Jan 97 at 1:56, Yaacov Fenster @ZKO3-2/T43 wrote, responding to 
something I had written):

> Nope, the dairy didn't get their hashgacja back, and as a matter of
> fact one of it's competitors is using the "Kosher" issue as a PR
> issue. Most of the discussion up till know seems to assume that
> there are only two types of milk "Yisrael" and "Stam". But as the
> above case shows, there is a third type, "Stam with Hashgacha" which
> while it isn't "Yisrael", would seem (depending on the supervision)
> to be reliable.

The problem with this is that the whole idea of Chalav Stam is 
supposed to be that I can buy milk anywhere any time and not worry 
about whether or not it has a Hashgacha.  "Stam with Hashgacha" is an 
oxymoron - if it has Hashgacha it isn't stam.  And if we already need 
to worry about whether or not the milk has a Hashgacha, then maybe we 
have to go the whole way and drink only Chalav Yisrael - as far as I 
know that's what they do in Europe (source: Twelve and a half years 
ago, Adina and I were stranded in Paris for twenty-four hours on the 
way to Eretz Yisrael.  There were some Yeshiva bochrim there who had 
spent the summer learning in Strasbourg who told us that in Europe 
the milk can have pigs' milk mixed in R"L and therefore we could only 
drink Chalav Yisrael in Europe).  

I don't think Rav Moshe's tshuva (Iggros Moshe YD 1:47) ever
contemplated the possibility of "Stam with Hashgacha."  Rav Moshe wrote
(in my loose translation), "Regarding the milk of companies in our
countries, that have government supervision, and if they would mix in
the milk of a non-Kosher animal they would be punished, and their
businesses would be shut down, and therefore they would be afraid to mix
it in...."  Yet, here we have an instance where an ingredient, shark
cartilege, which comes from a non-Kosher animal, was mixed into milk,
and the government does nothing.  Therefore, it appears to me that the
premise behind Rav Moshe's heter has been undermined.  Is there a
difference between the level of supervision in "Stam with Hashgacha" and
the level of supervision in Chalav Yisrael? It seems to me that there is
- Chalav Yisrael is supervised from the time of milking.  From what
point is "Stam with Hashgacha" supervised? Rav Moshe held that
government regulation was a substitute for Hashgacha *from the time of
milking*.  If that is no longer so, and in light of the fact that the
government now permits the use of shark cartilege in milk (apparently)
it appears that it is no longer so, can we countenance a difference
between the level of Hashgacha on Chalav Yisrael and the level of
Hashgacha referred to in the post as "Stam with Hashgacha"? (Obviously,
at least the Vaad HaRabbonim of Massachusetts has concluded that we can,
since they do continue to give Hashgacha on at least one other dairy in
Boston which is not Chalav Yisrael - my question is on what basis?).

Therefore, I think that my first question is in place and begs an 
answer, namely:

> > 1. In light of the Boston incident I referred to, may we continue
> > to drink chalav stam in the United States in reliance upon the
> > government regulation (or at least those of us who rely on Rav
> > Moshe Feinstein zt"l's tshuva regarding chalav stam)? (Chalav stam
> > is milk without a special Chalav Yisrael hashgacha).

If anyone in the New York area can reach the OU's Kashrus Department,
I'd be very curious to hear what they say about this, since I know that
they give Hashgacha to milk chocolate which is Chalav Stam.  Do they
insist that the milk from which the chocolate is produced have a
Hashgacha (supervision), and if so, what type of Hashgacha, or do they
accept any milk for these purposes?

-- Carl Sherer

Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for our son,
Baruch Yosef ben Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  
Thank you very much.

Carl and Adina Sherer

From: Yaacov Fenster @ZKO3-2/T43 <fenster@...>
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 09:34:40 -0500
Subject: Re: Shark's Cartilege (was Cheese)

Adina and Carl Sherer wrote:
> On 10 Jan 97 at 1:56, Yaacov Fenster @ZKO3-2/T43 wrote, responding to
> something I had written):
> ...
> I don't think Rav Moshe's tshuva (Iggros Moshe YD 1:47) ever
> contemplated the possibility of "Stam with Hashgacha."  Rav Moshe
> wrote (in my loose translation), "Regarding the milk of companies in
> ...

I think that the issue is that the milk now says on it "Vitamins A+D
added", and not "Ye Plain olde milk". It seems to me (and I will check
this out) that the Hasgacha on "Stam milk" assumes that the milk arrives
at the dairy without any additives unless it says so on the
"labeling". (Per Government regulation or whatever). At the dairy (or
anywhere else) if they add stuff, then you need Hasgacha. Following this
logic, if the milk says "Just milk, all the milk and nothing but the
milk" you could continue to drink it.


From: Cynthia Tenen <meru1@...>
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 1997 09:50:01 -0500
Subject: Shark's Cartilege (was Cheese)

In response to Carl Sherer's question re the Boston-area dairy, Garelick Farms:

The new additive was shark *liver oil*, not shark cartilege.  Garelick has
always advertised themselves as a source of "natural" milk, and they decided
to use shark liver oil as their source of added vitamin A (nearly all milk
sold commercially has added vitamins A and D).  Thus, they lost their
hechsher from the Boston VAAD, for all their products that use shark liver
oil.  Garelick is still using it (in fact, it's been a big advertising
point, both for them and for their chief competitor in the area), and
doesn't have any plans that I know of to change.

Cynthia Tenen


End of Volume 25 Issue 91