Volume 27 Number 20
                      Produced: Wed Oct 29  5:05:43 1997

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Batel Bashishim
         [Francine S. Glazer]
         [Shmuel Himelstein]
Chaim Shaipro's question about counseling
         [Norman D. Guzick]
Counseling and Halakhic Issues
         [George Max Saiger]
Daf Yomi calendar
         [Akiva Miller]
Lashon Hara
         [Linda Katz]
Succah decorations
         [Zvi Goldberg]
Succot Gematria


From: Francine S. Glazer <fglazer@...>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 09:42:16 -0500
Subject: Re:  Batel Bashishim

Michael Hoffman writes:
> (The laws of bittul don't apply if we
> are still aware of the issur, even if it is less than 1/60 e.g. if the
> issur is sharp, or changes the consistency or colour of the mixture,
> since it would be contradictory to say that the issur is annulled while
> we still see or feel it.)
>  To use our example - if a small piece of lard accidentally fell into
> the maple syrup, it would be permissible according to halacha to eat the
> maple syrup, since the lard is boteil. The lard does not change the
> colour or consistency of the mixture an can be regarded as if it wasn't
> there.

But the lard is put into the maple syrup deliberately, to keep it from
foaming.  Doesn't that change its consistency?  (at least in the
manufacturing process, if not in the final product.)  So therefore the
laws of bittul (nullification) should not apply in this case.

Fran Glazer


From: Shmuel Himelstein <himelstein@...>
Date: Wed Oct 29 07:37:44 1997
Subject: Bitachon

Below is the text in full of a recent advertisement in a local (Israeli)
Charedi newspaper (I think it's called "Hashavua Hacharedi," but I'm not

Da'at Torah

"Place your trust in Hashem and He will support you"

Our souls are shaken at having heard that there have been many cases,
Rachmana Litzlan, of many Bnei Torah who have spent a large amount of
money on buying Lotto, Chance and other such [gambling tickets] each
week and have not had the good fortune of winning.

We come hereby to warn and make clear, in the name of the city's rabbis,
Shlita, that one who has faith ("Emunah") in Hashem May He be Blessed,
can do his part of Hishtadlus (i.e., taking a positive action toward
being able to support oneself)

*by filling in a form for only NIS3.60* (about $1 - emphasis in

and be successful in his effort.

With Blessing, The Committee to Save the Families Bnei Brak

Shmuel Himelstein


From: <NGUZICK@...> (Norman D. Guzick)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 1997 23:53:56 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Chaim Shaipro's question about counseling

 I have been a reader of mj for quite a while and it has helped my
learning a great deal.  I have never submitted a contribution because I
have never felt qualified to comment.
 Chaim Shapiro's question about handling counseling sessions when he
must deal with questionable situations and topics may give me a chance
to contribute a small bit that may help him.
 As a medical student, one has to bring oneself to touch and analyze
areas and substances that would be totally out of bounds for others, not
just observant Jews, but anyone else not particularly charged with the
*obligation* to do so.  Although it may sound trivial, my answer to the
problem was *gloves*.  As long as I had on gloves I could carry out any
task, on a cadaver or on a live patient; analyze any fluid or material
from an individual or whatever.
 When psychiatry rotations took place or when I had to speak to patients
about their own problems - whatever they were, I, like most health
professionals learn to develop an analogous glove-like barrier between
matters that they might find unspeakable that patients need to express
and their own *interior* selves.
 Although I am in no way qualified to answer on the halakha of a
mental-health professional's obligation to his patients, the fact that
you were able to sit and listen to lashen hara in a way that you have
been trained to speaks to the soundness of your own professional
education. Your concern about how Torah teaching comes to bear on the
problem says even more about the merit of your moral education.
 Norman D. Guzick, M.D. 


From: George Max Saiger <gmsaiger@...>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 09:11:10 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Counseling and Halakhic Issues

Chaim wrote and Avi allowed in the following problem faced by a student 
> From: Chaim Z. Shapiro <cshapir@...>
> [Note, I am allowing the following through to the list, to allow a
> discussion of the issues surrounding being a religious therapist, a
> topic I view as being of interest and relevant to the list. However, the
> specific question of "What should I do" is one calling for a Psak
> Halacha, and I strongly recommend that anyone in Chaim's position have
> an extended conversation with whomever they view as their Halakhic
> authority, which is not the list. Mod.]
> 	While these sessions are indeed practice, a certain decorum is
> required.  The sessions are taped and graded, and the student therapist
> is expected to conduct himself as a real therapist would.
> 	During my second of three sessions, my client told me a story
> containing lashan hara about someone I know well.  This presented an
> unfor-seen problem.  As the therapist, it would have been highly
> inappropriate for me to reprimand the individual for his wrongdoing.
> After all, in therapy he can say whatever he wants.  It was similarly
> impossible for me, as a professional to show a look of disdain or
> disapproval for his comments.
> 	As best as I could figure, the only appropriate course of action
> was to listen to his lashan hara without comment (verbal or through body
> language), and make sure that I didn't believe the story that he told
> (which btw was not so easy as the client mentioned the story again in
> our third and final session requiring that I be cognizant of it and its
> implications).
> 	Any advice?  Did I handle the situation correctly? 

I am a practicing therapist and hope an answer which deals with therapy,
not halachah, will be permitted.  I believe that there is no way to
listen "openly" to lashon harah while inwardly cringing.  Good therapy
requires there to be some kind of honesty about the exchange.  For
example: client is probably aware that you are frum--you might inquire
whether he tells you this story with the idea of testing your reaction?

An interesting related issue is the reaction of the supervisor who will
review your tape and--unless well trained--will criticize your use of
ethnic particularisms in therapy.  Ah, well, this is a long-standing
problem amongst minority therapists of all kinds.  Overall, it is best
to be frank with these people too.  It builds better therapists.

Hope this helps,

George Saiger, MD


From: Akiva Miller <kgmiller@...>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 14:17:35 -0500
Subject: Daf Yomi calendar

I would like to design my own Daf Yomi and Mishna Yomit calendars, and
am looking for the raw information to use. My search engines found lots
of stuff on the 'net in terms of Daf Yomi classes, both in text or
audio, but I have been unable to find any calendars in an electronic

I would appreciate it if anyone could send me either a text file, or a
database, or a location, where I could find any of the following: A Daf
Yomi calendar for the current cycle or any cycle; a Mishna Yomit
calendar for the current cycle or any cycle; a list of the volumes of
the Talmud, including the number of pages in each gemara, and/or the
number of chapters in each volume and number of mishnayos in each

If anyone would like the results of this work, let me know, and I will
try to send it to you, if and when I complete it.

Thank you
Akiva Miller


From: <MSGraphics@...> (Linda Katz)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 22:20:03 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Lashon Hara 

Chaim's question about listening to lashon hara in therapy sessions is
similar to one I always run into when working on shidduchim. You cannot
force yourself to "forget" if by obligation you must remember- but you
can train yourself not to believe what you hear and not to let it cause
further pain to it's victims.

It's hard but possible. Sometimes you have to dig even deeper into the
dirt to be dan le'chaf zechus. Like when you're told third hand that the
nice guy you want to set up with your friend punched his ex-wife's teeth
in.... I still have terrible problems with these situations. You have to
protect your friend- but you can't permit yourself to believe the lashon
hara. Sometimes you have to check references and hear even more lashon

Fortunately, lashon hara prevention being the popular subject it is
these days thanks to the Chofetz Chaim Heritage foundation, etc, much
has been written on how to act in these situations. Guard Your Tongue
and of course Sefer Shmiras Halashon are good references.

Still, those of us who choose to put ourselves in situations where we
must reach out to others and hear this stuff are certainly spiritually
hurt on some level. But- it's a tradeoff and one that must be made
individually. Same as the decision to invite non-religious friends in
the name of kiruv into our makom-Torah homes, where our innocent
children might learn more about the "dirty" world than we'd like...

We do our best for the right reasons and Hashem will (hopefully IY"H)
protect us.

Linda Katz


From: <zg@...> (Zvi Goldberg)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 09:21:35 -0500
Subject: Succah decorations

	In our succah, we had a large hanging decoration. Is there a
problem eating under it ? If there is, would there be a minimum size to
not eat under it -- perhaps if it is covering "rosho v'rubo" (one's head
and most of his body) ?


From: <TwerskyD@...>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 11:21:00 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Succot Gematria

How many times do we shake the lulav on Succos?

According to minhag Ashkanaz we do 8 sets of "Na-anuim" in Hallel + 1
more before Hallel when saying the Brocho.  (9 sets).  Each set is 3
shakes in each of six directions (18 shakes).  We do this each day
except Shabbos (6 days).

All together that is 9*18*6 = 792.

I checked on the Bar Ilan program for verses in Tanach that have 792 as
a Gematria.  The only one in all Tanach with that Gematria is Tehillim
109:26 "Ezrayni HASHEM EloKai, HOSHEEAYNU k'CHASDECHA" (Has the motif of
both "Ana HASHEM HOSHEEYA Na" and "Hodu L'HASHEM ki tov, ki l'olam
CHASDO" with which we shake the Lulav!

Gut Moed!


End of Volume 27 Issue 20