Volume 27 Number 21
                      Produced: Wed Oct 29  5:07:41 1997

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Answering Kadish Through Video Transmission
         [Yitzchok Adlerstein]
Deaths on Chol Hamoed and Yom Tov
         [I. Harvey Poch]
Microphones and Answering Amen
         [Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer]
Migdol & Magdil
         [Menashe Elyashiv]
Migdol, Magdil
         [Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer]
Mourning during Chag
         [Yisrael Medad]
Shir Ha'Ma'alot and Al Naharot Bavel
         [Mike Fischer]
Taking the Middle Road
         [Steve White]
When Death Occurs on Yom Tov
         [Janice Gelb]
When death occurs on Yom TOv where Shabbos directly follows
         [Larry Israel]


From: Yitzchok Adlerstein <yadler@...>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 08:34:00 -0800
Subject: Answering Kadish Through Video Transmission

I believe that there has been some confusion in some of the previous
postings.  It is true that, for the most part, the poskim are not
thrilled with the idea of fulfilling one's obligation to hear Havdalah
or Megillah through an electronically transmitted recitation.  They
regard the sound that is heard as disembodied and completely altered
from the original.

In answering Kadish and Kedushah, though, the issue is not fulfilling an
obligation, but the propriety of answering to a recitation that one did
not hear.  It turns out (see Ramo, 124:11) that you can answer even if
you never heard the recitation.  All you need is to be aware that
someone recited the Kadish, etc. the very moment before.  Certainly a
live video transmission from Madison Square Garden makes one aware that
the shliach tzibbur has just recited the beginning of Kadish, allowing
you to respond with "Amen, Yehey Shemei etc."

This is what we assumed at the Los Angeles Siyum HaShas.  I was pleased
to find this distinction explicitly given by Rav Ovadiah Yosef, shlit"a,
in Yechave Da'as 2:68.  He mentions that Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach z"tl
came to the same conclusion: you can answer to Kadish and Kedushah, but
you do not fulfill any obligation to hear a beracha, etc.


From: I. Harvey Poch <af945@...>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 20:29:29 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Deaths on Chol Hamoed and Yom Tov

This is meant to be an answer to questions raised by John Kraus, and
then some. I offer this information as a professional funeral director
serving the Jewish community of greater Toronto and area.

If a funeral is held during chol hamo'ed, the actual observance of shiva
does not begin until after the holiday is over, but, in chutz la'aretz,
the last day of the holiday counts as the first day of shiva - even
though aveilus is NOT observed. Thus, this year, the observance of shiva
would have begun on Saturday night, but would end on THURSDAY morning.

In the case of Mr. Kraus' friend, IF the burial had in fact occurred on
Simchas Torah, the observance of shiva would have begun on Saturday
night and finish on THURSDAY morning as well, because Simchas Torah
would have counted as day 1, even though no aveilus was
observed. However, since the burial took place on Sunday, the OBSERVANCE
of shiva ends late Friday afternoon, but the shiva itself ends on
Shabbos after shacharis. In most places, this means that the earliest
the avel can have an aliyah is at MINCHAH on Shabbos.

As far as hakkofos, even though this is a public display of mourning,
most avelim IN SHIVA will not circle, and most avelim will not dance
during the entire twelve months. Since aninus (the period between the
death and the burial) is a more severe level of mourning, this should be
true for the onen as well.

As far as saying kaddish when an onen, IF the onen will not be attending
the funeral, shiva would begin immediately on a regular weekday, and
kaddish should be said immediately. (I remember one member of the shul
where I daven, whose mother died overseas on Erev Yom Kippur several
years ago. Since the daughter could not make it to the funeral, she
began her shiva immediately, and it ended with Yom Kippur - even though
her mother was buried only AFTER Yom Kippur in the country where she
died. So the shiva was over before the funeral!)

If the onen IS planning to attend the funeral, there is a general
principal that the onen is exempted (even FORBIDDEN) from performing ALL
'mitzvos asay' until the funeral, since s/he is supposed to be doing
what is necessary to prepare for the funeral. This includes tefilloh
b'tzibur and kaddish. However, in his book "Death and Bereavement: A
Halakhic Guide", published by Ktav and the UOJCA, Rabbi Abner Weiss
writes "An onen *may* recite Kaddish" (emphasis mine) - p. 44. On p. 47
he also lists the do's and don't's for Sukkos, and says that an onen
*may* accept an aliya on Simchas Torah, as long as it is not either of
the 'chassan' aliyos.

I. Harvey Poch  (:-)>


From: Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer <sbechhof@...>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 01:30:25 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Microphones and Answering Amen

The issue of answeing "omein" to a bracha or kaddish over a microphone
is completely distinct from whether one fulfills the mitzva of megilla
etc. - even havdala - thereby by virtue of "shomei'a k'oneh" (hearing is
like responding). That the former is permissible is derived from the
Gemara in Sukka describing the large shul in Alexandria where even those
who could not hear the Chazzan answered on cue. The latter is far more
complex. While some Poskim do permit shomei'a k'oneh via a microphone
(Reb Moshe Feinstein seems unsure about the issue), many, including Reb
Shlomo Zalman Auerbach and the Lubavitcher Rebbe - and, notably, Reb
Yosef Engel in his Gilyonei HaShas on the recent Daf Yomi on "Erva
b'Ashashis), who had a very good comprehension of the technology
involved, emphatically reject this position. The Lubavitcher Rebbe
states that anyone who permits shomei'a k'oneh via a microphone does not
understand the nature of electronics!

It should be noted that even "live" shomei'a k'oneh has its limits. For
example, the Chazon Ish rules explicitly that one cannot fulfill the
obligation of hearing the Haftara from an individual reading out of a
Chumash, or even a Tanach. Unless the Ba'al Keri'ah leins the Haftara from
a Nach written on a parchment scroll, the  congregation must read along
(preferably in an undertone I assume, although by many Chassidim I have
seen the congregation drowning out the Ba'al Keri'ah) form their
respective Chumashim.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
c/o Shani Bechhofer


From: Menashe Elyashiv <elyashm@...>
Date: Tue, 28 Oct 1997 08:35:50 +0200 (WET)
Subject: Migdol & Magdil

The  Minhag Sepharadi is to say Migdol on:
Days that Musaf is said
Seuda Riviit (Melava Malka) - except if it is after Yom Kippur (because it
                              is not a Melava Malka)
Seudat Purim, Seudat Brit (but not Sheva Brahot)
The reasons are Kabbalic. 
BTW, R. Amram Aburavia in his Netivai Am wrote that Migdol should be said
also on Yom Haasmaout!

From: Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer <sbechhof@...>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 01:30:25 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Migdol, Magdil

The Rogatchover has an exquisite explanation of why we say Migdol on
Shabbos and Magdil on weekdays. The Gemara forbade the study of any
passages in the portion of Tanach known as "Kesuvim" on Shabbos, because
this pursuit proved more appealing to the masses than attending the
halachic discourses generally held on Shabbos that Chazal deemed more
vital. The song of Dovid from which the line "Magdil/Migdol yeshu'os malko
etc. appears both in Kesuvim and Nevi'im. The version that has magdil is
from Kesuvim, the version that has migdol is from Nevi'im (Shmuel) - in
order to remind us of the prohibition of perusing Kesuvim on Shabbos the
difference was instated.

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer
c/o Shani Bechhofer


From: <isrmedia@...> (Yisrael Medad)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 97 20:06:45 PST
Subject: RE: Mourning during Chag 

Here at Shiloh, a 10 year old died of heart failure stemming from
a birth defect at the end of Shabbat during Chag.  The burial
was the next day but besides the saying of Kaddish, the family
practiced no outward signs of mourning, that is, they encircled
the Bimah during the Hoshanot saying and danced during Simchat
Yisrael Medad


From: Mike Fischer <miketran@...>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 00:10:26 -0500
Subject: Re: Shir Ha'Ma'alot and Al Naharot Bavel

From: <NJGabbai@...> (Jeff Fischer)
> As far as Shir Ha'Ma'alot and Al HaNaharot Bavel are concerned, Shir
> HaMa'alot is said on any day that we do not say Tachanun and Al
> HaNa'arot is said on days that we do say Tachanun.

Jeff, what about days on which we say Tachanun during part of the day
and the rest of it we don't, like Fridays (Tachanun in shachrit and none
at mincha?)
What do we say at "lunch" on Fridays?

You are eating a seuda on a "regular" Thursday when Tachanun is said and
a man who was just married two days earlier came into the lunchroom to
join you.
   A) Do you say shir hamaalot?
   B) If the chatan joined you and another male to form a group of three
or eight to form a minyon. Do you say shir hamaalot?
   C) What if you're celebrating a personal simcha like a siyum on a
volume of the talmud. Do you say shir hamaalot?
   D) What about Yom HaAtzmaut. Do you say shir hamaalot?
        What if the group eating together don't share the same view about
        the whether or not Yom HaAtzmaut is a happy day. (May Hashem rapidly
        open their eyes to see the great miracle tahe Yom HaAtzmaut

  -- Mike (HaLevi) Fischer


From: <StevenJ81@...> (Steve White)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 18:38:06 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Taking the Middle Road

I'd like to propose a new spin on a couple of recent strings.

(1) Maple syrup and batel b'shishim [nullified by 1 part in 60]: It
seems to me that the actual position is neither that the bitul
[nullification] is done b'diaved [after the fact, as in an accidental
case], nor is it a case where the manufacturer is making something for
the Jewish market using an ingredient which is known before the fact to
be treif.  Instead, he is simply trying to take a product he is already
manufacturing for the gentile market and gain additional sales among the

Here's the difference.  If the manufacturer were making something for
the Jewish community alone (or primarily), he would be required to
change the ingredient, for if he did not, he would have few or no sales.

In the current case, changing ingredients from lard to something else
*might* be too expensive, and he might not be able to afford the margin
hit that such a change would place on his entire manufacturing
operation.  On the other hand, he is willing to pay a supervising
service to make sure everything (else) is entirely ok, because the
additional cost of the supervision drives sales sufficiently to pay
itself off.  If the nullification l'chatchila [before the fact] is a
legitimate halachic device when the product is being made primarily for
non-Jews, why shouldn't such a hechsher be completely ok?  Why wouldn't
we want to encourage such a hechsher?

(2) Answering amen to a broadcast: Three separate questions, not one:
(a) *Must* one answer amen to a broadcast?  (Evidently not) (b) Can one
be yotzei anything by hearing something broadcast and answering amen?
(Seems not, except perhaps in extremis, or maybe when the broadcaster
and listener are in the same room) (c) Is there any reason *not* to
answer amen to a broadcast?

It seems to me that the answer to (c) is no, and that there might be a
marit ayin [appearance of violating a halacha] problem in not answering.

Steven White


From: <janiceg@...> (Janice Gelb)
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 15:16:00 -0800
Subject: When Death Occurs on Yom Tov

In vol 27 #17, John Kraus wrote:

> I am just wondering if any one would know the Halacha that is practiced
> around the world with respect to my question. On Simchat Torah Night,
> one of my freinds mothers (A'H) past away. They went to the Rav of the
> Yeshiva Communtiy, and they were told to start saying kadddish, not to
> receive Hakafot or an Aliyah and not to dance. The 'proper' shiva was to
> start after Shabbos on sunday .(Simchat Torah was on thrusday
> night). The Adass communtiy, of which they are affiliated with wanted
> the burial to be on second day Yom Tov. The family decided for numerous
> reasons that the burial should take place on sunday. I have heard
> various comments and thoughts on whether kaddish should have been said
> before the burial or not, do you know of any cases like this ?

Amazing that you should bring this up: a close friend's father died on
Wednesday afternoon right before the first night of Sukkot, and I now
know much more than I ever did before about the rules of mourning on yom

Although some authorities evidently permit burial on second-day yom tov,
transportation issues and so on make it difficult to do so
halachically. My friend also decided to wait until Sunday.  During the
time between the death and the funeral, she was told that she was in the
same state as any avela between a death and the funeral, so I doubt
kaddish should be said.

In her case, as the funeral was during chol hamoed, they could not start
the shiva until Simchat Torah (second day yom tov is evidently
acceptable to count for shiva).

Janice Gelb                  | The only connection Sun has with this      
<janice.gelb@...>      | message is the return address. 


From: Larry Israel <VSLARRY@...>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 97 21:41:07 +0200
Subject: Re: When death occurs on Yom TOv where Shabbos directly follows

The following is just anecdotal. When my father passed away on a Friday,
and the funeral was to be on Sunday, the rabbi of his "shtiebl" told me
to say kaddish on Shabbes, as there was nothing for me to do anyway.

However, I noticed that Lamm's "The Jewish Way of Mourning", and the Kitzur
Shulhan Aruch both say that you should not say kaddish unless you were
going to say it anyway or if there is no other mourner.


End of Volume 27 Issue 21