Volume 27 Number 22
                      Produced: Sun Nov  2  6:42:50 1997

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Death immediately before Yom Tov
         [Eric Jaron Stieglitz]
Evil Eye
         [Moishe Kimelman]
Frum Boys' Plays
         [Moishe Kimelman]
Halachic methodology of History
         [Chana Luntz]
Kaddish prior to Burial
         [Mark Dratch]
Large Succha Decoration
         [Chaim Mateh]
Leshon ha-ra and the dati psychotherapist
         [Rise Goldstein]
Loshon Hora and Therapy
Magdil vs Migdol
         [Micha Berger]
Migdol and Magdil
         [Mechael Kanovsky]
Paid time off for Yom Tov
         [Yehudah Prero]


From: Eric Jaron Stieglitz <ephraim@...>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 11:14:47 -0500
Subject: Death immediately before Yom Tov

  In my community, a man passed away early in the day of Erev Shavuot.
They held the funeral in the afternoon, and the family sat shivah for
approximately two hours before getting up to begin the preparations for
Yom Tov. Since they started shivah before Yom Tov, the shivah period
effectively ended with the beginning of Shavuot and they did not need
to continue shivah when the holiday ended.

Eric Jaron Stieglitz    <ephraim@...>
Home: (212) 851-1152            Systems Manager
Work: (212) 854-8782            Civil Engineering, Columbia University
Fax : (212) 854-6267    http://www.ctr.columbia.edu/people/Eric.html


From: Moishe Kimelman <kimel@...>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 1997 17:22:05 +1000
Subject: Evil Eye

In 27#18 Yeshaya Halevi wrote:

>2.  There is no "evil eye." Period.  And anyone who believes
>in it is following pagan precepts and violating the Torah's commandments
>against "darkhe ha-Emori," the ways/customs of the heathens."

I find it difficult to understand how one can claim the above (and
continue with what appears to be a claim that "ayin hara" is an
invention of the early Xians), when Talmudic literature is full of
references to "ayin hara" and the damage it can cause. Perhaps Yeshaya
would like to explain this anomaly.


From: Moishe Kimelman <kimel@...>
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 16:39:24 +1000
Subject: Frum Boys' Plays

I was wondering whether anybody could help me source some plays suitable
for a frum boys' school. The plays would have to have Jewish content,
and not have any female roles (or at least not have female roles that
couldn't be turned into male roles). We are looking for both comedy and

Please email me privately with your replies.

Thanks in advance.
Moishe Kimelman


From: Chana Luntz <heather@...>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 18:07:25 +0000
Subject: Halachic methodology of History

>Hayim S. Hendeles <hayim@...> writes:
>IMHO the statement (about the Netziv reading a newspaper on Shabbat WB)
>*had to be deleted*. And I say this, because
>you and I *DO NOT KNOW* what the word "newspaper" means. To some,
>it means the New York Times, to some it means the Yated Neeman
>(which contains the news from a Torah perspective as well as
>numerous Divrei Torah), and to others the word "newspaper" means
>one of these sleazy British tabloids.

Well there is another solution - in fact the one that the Torah Temima
adopted, which is not just to say that the Netziv read "a newspaper",
but to give details of exactly which newspapers he read.  I just used
the term newspaper, because I couldn't remember off-hand precisely which
newspapers were discussed (although if my memory serves me right, the
Torah Temima made a point of commenting that the editors of the
"frummer" newspaper were somewhat put out that the Netziv preferred the
"less frum" newspaper.)  However, without the details in front of me, I
would certainly not wish to name names, - hence the reference in my post
to "a newspaper".  The reader is thus advised to consult the precise
wording of the Torah Temima on the subject.  In such a case, ie where
details are spelled out by the author, any reader who is curious enough
can go and check whether such a newspaper or newspapers were closer to
Yated Neeman or the New York Times thus avoiding the problem raised
above (you should note that copies of HaMagid, HaMerlitz, HaShofar and
the various other Jewish Newspapers of the time can be found in various
locations around the United States of America - check particularly with
the New York State Library and the Library of Congress).



From: <MSDratch@...> (Mark Dratch)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 10:51:44 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Kaddish prior to Burial

In a message dated 97-10-29 05:25:23 EST, my friend Harvey Poch writes:
<< there is a general principal that the onen is exempted (even
FORBIDDEN) from performing ALL 'mitzvos asay' until the funeral, since
s/he is supposed to be doing what is necessary to prepare for the
funeral. This includes tefilloh b'tzibur and kaddish.  >>

 However, if it is Shabbat or yom tov one is obligated to pray and
perform all mtzvot, so the question remains.
 There is a debate between the Shach and the Taz (See Yoreh Deah 376:4)
regarding the propriety of saying kaddish prior to burial.  Taz suggests
that since the neshama stands before the dvine throne of justice even
before burial, it may be appropriate to say kaddish.  Shach disagrees.
Rabbi Soloveitchik, zt"l, is quoted in Nefesh haRav, p. 247, as
maintaining that the custom is not to say kaddish (unless one will not
attend the burial).


From: Chaim Mateh <chaimm@...>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 23:32:55 +0200
Subject: Re: Large Succha Decoration

Zvi Goldberg asked:

<<In our succah, we had a large hanging decoration. Is there a problem
eating under it ? If there is, would there be a minimum size to not eat
under it -- perhaps if it is covering "rosho v'rubo" (one's head and most
of his body) ?>>

If the decoration is lower than 3 tfochim (between 24-30 cm depending on
the various Hallachic views) from the schach, which would make the
decoration NOT "part" of the schach, but rather a separate object from
it, then if the decoration if larger than 4 by 4 tfochim (32-40 cm
depending on the various Hallachic views), then that part of the sukkah
posul (invalid).

To be 100% sure, ask your LOR.  I'm neither local, not a Rabbi, although I
am Orthodox <G>.

Kol Tuv,
Chaim Mateh
Eretz Yisroel


From: Rise Goldstein <GOLDSTN@...>
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 97 09:26:45 EST
Subject: Leshon ha-ra and the dati psychotherapist

Chaim Shapiro, among others, has raised the issue of what a dati
therapist is and is not allowed to do about leshon ha-ra heard from
clients during therapy sessions.  One of the responses to his query (I
mistakenly deleted the digest containing the particular post and the
name of the post-er) was something to the effect that one might don the
psychotherapeutic equivalent of the MD's examining glove, placing a
barrier around oneself against "believing" the leshon ha-ra and allowing
the maintenance of a detached therapeutic neutrality.  I know, this
isn't the exact wording, but it's how I at least understood the post.
Apologies if I've mangled it, and for not acknowledging the contributor
by name.

Although I'm not actively involved in clinical work at the moment, I'm
also a mental health professional, and in my mind this interchange has
raised a number of very important issues.  I only want to address one
here, and am duly aware that each case has its particulars that the
discussion on the list can't appropriately cover.  I am interested in
the issue of where a dati therapist can/should/is obligated to draw the
line between not heeding leshon ha-ra, and responding to a client's

For example, _might_ someone conclude that a therapist is obligated not
to act upon a child client's report that s/he has been abused,
especially if the alleged abuser is, chas ve-chalila, a parent or even a
rebbe?  Similarly, with a woman whose husband is battering her?  It may
not be 100% essential in psychotherapy for a therapist to believe the
client.  However, one operating with a "psychotherapeutic glove" on
might not be as inclined to work proactively to remove an abused client
from the situation in which s/he is being victimized.  Moreover, if a
therapist is not allowed to heed or act upon such disclosures, victims
may be less inclined to disclose their victimization and therefore more
likely to remain in and continue to be injured by such maltreatment.

And, what about individuals who come into therapy to deal with past
abuse, particularly abuse which has become related to post-traumatic
stress disorder?  AFAIK, there is no empirically validated psychotherapy
approach that is effective in dealing with post-traumatic stress that
does _not_ involve talking about the trauma in some way.  Might this,
too, amount to leshon ha-ra, especially if the abuser/rapist/inflicter
of the trauma is named by the client?

Rise Goldstein, Ph.D. (<GOLDSTN@...>)
New York, NY


From: Anonymous
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 10:50:03 -0500
Subject: RE: Loshon Hora and Therapy

I cannot conceive of anything that would resemble therapy that would not
include unfavorable reports about the people in the patient's life.
This might include parents, friends, educators etc. etc.  If a therapist
chose to discount all this information as possible loshon hora I cannot
imagine any meaningful interaction taking place.  I would imagine that
both a frum client and a frum therapist enter a theraputic relationship
with the intention of "good" coming out of the encounter and the premise
that within a theraputic setting certain things will be said (in 100%
confidence) that might not otherwise have any place in "frum"

With "unconditional positive regard" as a cornerstone for successful
therapy, frum therapists, treating frum patients who are overly
judgemental about their patients level of frumkeit are probably better
off seeking another means of earning a living.  And although a certain
"professional" attitude is quite appropriate, a therapist must be
present emotionally unlike an MD performing standard medical procedures.
While I welcome the idea that a medical doctor perceives both
practically and theoretically a barrier between him and his patient, I
would be concerned about how strong a personal boundary a therapist
requires to do his work though clearly some boundary is required.

How can one improve a marriage in marriage counseling without discussing
the negative qualities of the marriage/marriage partner.  How can one
deal with problems stemming from "family of origin" without divulging
negative information about one's parents or siblings.

If a patient slanders and gossips continuously that should be used as
material within the theraputic setting whether the participants are frum
or not.  A patient could be asked why he is using his time to idly
gossip about others rather than working on his own stuff.


From: <micha@...> (Micha Berger)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 09:45:27 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Magdil vs Migdol

I had thought the reason was much simpler:

"Migdol yeshuos malko" means "a tower of salvation is his rule". "Magdil.."
means "Enlarge the salvation of his rule". Migdol a statement of fact,
magdil is a request.

We refrain from making requests on Shabbos and Yom Tov, so we say "migdol"
instead of "magdil".

That would tie migdol vs magdil to whether or not one says the usual
Shemoneh Esrei, which has 13 requests in the middle, implying "magdil"
would be appropriate for Cholo shel Moed.

Micha Berger (973) 916-0287
http://www.aishdas.org -- Orthodox Judaism: Torah, Avodah, Chessed


From: <KANOVSKY@...> (Mechael Kanovsky)
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 1997 15:17:38 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Migdol and Magdil

About Migdol and Magdil, Rav Baruch Epstein (the Torah Temimah) in his
book Mekor Baruch says that it is all based on a mistake. Migdol is in
Shmuel bet.  (the book of Samuel part B). The sidur had only magdil and
someone wrote on the side the letters Bet Shin Bet (B'Shmuel Bet)
migdol. Some printer thought it meant B'shabat (on the sabath) you
should say migdol and if one says it on shabat one probably also says it
on holidays and that is how he printed it and the mistake propogated
itself from there.
 mechael kanovsky


From: <DaPr@...> (Yehudah Prero)
Date: Thu, 30 Oct 1997 20:14:51 -0500 (EST)
Subject: re: Paid time off for Yom Tov 

I work as an attorney for New York City's Dept. of Environmental
Protection.  All new employees get 15 paid vacation days a year to do
with as they see fit.  This covers me for all of the Chagim this
year. Paid sick leave can not be used for holiday leave. If it is
authorized, employees can work overtime and get comp time which can be
used for holiday leave.

While we're on the topic, what do governement employees do about early
Shabbos in the winter? I am allowed to work overtime to make up for the
missing hours on Friday.

Kol Tuv, and I hope your "melech chadash" is as understanding as my boss!

Yehudah Prero 


End of Volume 27 Issue 22