Volume 28 Number 68
                 Produced: Wed Jun  9  7:00:17 US/Eastern 1999

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Abusing the Internet
         [Daniel Stuhlman]
Direction at Hebrew U
         [Yehuda Poch]
How to deal w/ frum worker abusing the net?
         [David Charlap]
Kaddish and Minyan
mail-jewish Vol. 28 #65 Digest
Minyan for Repetition of Shmoneh Esreh
         [Perry Zamek]
         [Eisenberg, Lon]
Reporting email violators to non jews and Rav Saadia Gaon
         [Russell Hendel]
Work assignments for non-religious Jewish colleagues
         [Jay R. Shayevitz, MD, MS]
         [Shmuel Himelstein]


From: Daniel Stuhlman <ssmlhtc@...>
Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 10:15:57
Subject: Re: Abusing the Internet

To continue my comments from yesterday---

We discussed abusing the Internet yesterday at lunch.  The answer for
abuse by a student in our school is totally different from an adult in a

As a school we have a certain obligation of *in loco parentis*.  The
teacher, librarian, or administrator who "catches" a student viewing non
appropriate sites, using chat rooms or any other non approved use has
the obligation to take appropriate action.  We have a written policy for
what the internet can be used for.

Daniel Stuhlman
Chicago, IL 60645
<mail to:<ddstuhlman@...>
This is a private message-- not connected to my organization.


From: Yehuda Poch <yehudap@...>
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 12:59:12 +0300
Subject: Direction at Hebrew U

Zev Sero wrote:

>BTW, the most interesting shul I've seen is the one at the university on
>>Har Hatzofim, where the aron is off to one side, and the front of the
>>shul is a floor-to-ceiling window looking straight down onto the Har
>>Habayit!  Obviously in that shul the direction of prayer would be toward
>>the window, not the aron.

I also find this shul terribly interesting.  BUt two corrections.

1) There are in effect 2 aronot kodesh in this shul.  It is a split aron.
The two cabinets are located on either side of the window.  Each one is
relatively thin, and cannot hold more than 2 sifrei Torah at most.

2) These two aronot flank the window.  IN effect, when you face the window,
you are also facing the aronot.
Yehuda Poch


From: David Charlap <shamino@...>
Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 02:48:24 +0000
Subject: Re: How to deal w/ frum worker abusing the net?

Frances Klein-Lehman <faygie_klein@...> writes:
> I am a systems administrator for a large company.  The company just
> instituted a new policy to monitor network activities and all users
> understand that they have no expectation of privacy when using
> corporate systems and that their activities may be monitored.
> There is a frum guy who has been abusing the net.  He visits adult-
> sites and frequests chat rooms.  I know with certainty that it is him
> But the bigger issue is, how do I approach him and tell him to stop
> without embarrasing him?

If your company policy forces you to initiate a specific course of
action, then you don't have any choice in the matter.  You have to do
your job.

If you, as system administrator, have some leeway, I would recommend
that you arrange a private face-to-face meeting with the individual in
question.  Let him know that you are aware of his activities.  Let him
know the penalties the company policy will force you to impose if the
abuses continue.

It is critical that you have the meeting in private.  If privacy can not
be assured on the premesis, perhaps an off-site meeting (away from the
prying ears of coworkers) can be arranged.  While you may hurt his
feelings, I don't think you are guilty of any embarrassment if you keep
the meeting private.  If no other employees know, then no collateral
damage will be done to his career.

Once the warning is delivered, I think you can be free to apply company
policy to subsequent violations.  Your obligation as a Jew is to give
him the benefit of the doubt, not to turn a blind eye to deliberate

At least that's my opinion.  I'm no rabbi, and my opinion should not be
taken as law.  I think this falls under the laws of when and how to
rebuke a fellow Jew, and those laws are not trivial.

-- David


From: Yisrael Medad <isrmedia@...>
Date: Wed,  9 Jun 99 10:55:49 PDT
Subject: Kaddish and Minyan 

Regarding the query on Kaddish after the Shmoneh Esreh of Maariv
and the answer that:

"the Kaddish can be said when there are
6 people who will respond. The other 4 can still be davening."
Avraham Reiss

If I am not mistaken, at least during Shacharit, the Kaddish 
after Amidah can be said even if there is no minyan present,
as long as there was a Minyan at the start of the Amidah.

Yisrael Medad


From: Yeshaya Halevi <CHIHAL@...>
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 11:49:05 EDT
Subject: Re: Correct Pronunciation of Hebrew, and Speed of Praying

Shalom, All:
        Someone (again) raised the age-old question:
<< how is it possible that those who pray very fast can correctly pronounce 
the words? >>
           Although I prefer to say fewer t'feelot (prayers) with
attention paid to proper pronounciation and, particularly, understanding
each prayer's meaning, there is something to be said for the crowd which
mumbles t'feelot.
          Someone allegedly did a study of the brain waves emitted by
mumbler-daveners and found that many of them thus managed to kick their
minds into the alpha state, which is associated with relaxation and
meditation.  (Of course, these people were not whipping themselves into
a frenzy just to keep pace with a rapid-fire congregation rushing to
finish before a weekday's work.)
         Also anecdotally, I have heard of crying babies being rocked to
peaceful rest when placed in the arms of their father or grandfather who
was davening at home.  Apparently the alpha-like state of calm can be
transmitted, especially when acccompanied by the rocking/swaying motion
of the one who davened.
     Yeshaya Halevi (<Chihal@...>)


From: Perry Zamek <jerusalem@...>
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 11:31:18 +0300
Subject: Minyan for Repetition of Shmoneh Esreh

I beg to differ with Zev Sero (mj v28n65) who wrote:

>Again AFAIK the only requirement for some number of
>answerers applies to the chazan's repetition of the Amida, which he does
>*on behalf of a congregation*, and therefore he must have a congregation
>praying with him, on behalf of whom he is saying it; i.e. a minyan
>paying attention to his repetition, of whom a majority were saying some
>part of the silent Amidah at the same time (e.g. the 6th person started
>a few seconds before the 1st person finished). 

If I recall correctly, the Mishnah Berurah suggests (reference?) that if
the shaliach tzibur is concerned that less than 10 people will answer
Amen to the brachot in the repetition of the shemoneh esreh, he should
make a t'nai (condition) before starting that this recitation of the
shemonah esreh should be deemed a tefilat nedavah (voluntary
prayer). This would seem to indicate that the minimum number of
answerers should be 10.

Perhaps Zev is referring to the question of what number of people is
required for there to be a repetition at all.

Perry Zamek   | A Jew should live his life in such a way
Peretz ben    | that people can say of him: "There goes
Avraham       | a living Kiddush Hashem".

From: Eisenberg, Lon <eisenbrg@...>
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 11:04:14 -0400 
Subject: Correct Pronunciation of Hebrew, and Speed of Praying

> On the other hand, when it comes to the Blessing of the Kohanim, the
> halachah is that correct pronunciation is essential, although I think
> that the commentaries consider incorrect pronunciation acceptable if
> most of the people in the community speak that way (which means, for
> example, that an Ashkenazi kohen can pronounce the letters ches and chaf
> identically without it being an issue).

	However, let's not forget that the Mehaber writes that one who
pronounces 'aleph like `ayin or `ayin like 'aleph is disqualified as the
sheliah zibor, and not even the Remah argues.  I've always found it
interesting how this halakha is disregarded.


From: Russell Hendel <rhendel@...>
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 21:59:27 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Reporting email violators to non jews and Rav Saadia Gaon

The fascinating business ethics question of what to do with an orthodox
worker who is visiting adult sites and chat rooms was raised in v28n64
and continued in v28n66 by David Stuhlman & Debbi Wegner. I just want to
respond to the points already made:

1) The suggestion of mailing the whole office again and telling them
that people have been caught and will be cited is not advisable because
it creates the incorrect impression that many company people are
violating the policy (when in fact only one is). Clearly this would
create a bad atmosphere/moral and is not desirable.

2) The question "What difference does it matter if he is orthodox or
Jewish" is excellent---embarassing someone is a tort (the same as
hitting someone). It is EQUALLY BIBLICALLY prohibited to both Jew and
non jew. Similarly protection/respect of property rights applies equally
to jew and non jew.

3) The suggestion "Well the guy violated policy...tell your boss and it
is not your problem" is incorrect---the systems manager was DELEGATED
responsibility for the task and is therefore MORALLY responsible himself
for HOW he IMPLEMENTS this responsibility.

4) Although this has not been explicitly stated:
4a) while there is no real status of EMBARASSMENT to a culprit who
is caught, nevertheless,
4b) if you can warn/catch him without embarassment you should do so

My advice (modifying the already submitted suggestions) is as follows:
a) A Lan manager can see that a note is received only by a certain
group.  Therefore let the lan manager send a note IN GENERAL terms but
only to the people violating policy: e.g. "The recipients of this note
have been found violating company policy. In one week a final report
will be sent to the boss who will probably fire/fine/penalize them".

b) If necessary, a note of paper can be left on the persons desk stating
"You were found visiting the following sites..My final report will be
sent in a week and if you are still visiting you will be reported".

c) The lan manager should give some period (e.g a week or two) and say
that he will only report those still violating policy at the end of this
time period.

This solution
a) gives the violator time to repent
b) gives the lan manager the right to fully support company policy. Eg
his report can read: "There were several violators found: However after
a preliminary warning the number of violators dropped to zero. Further
details available on request."
c) Allows the lan manager to IMPLEMENT company policy in a manner
consistent with Jewish morals

Allow me to conclude with a famous story attributed to Rabbi Saadia
Gaon.  While walking with the king a jew came up and insulted the King
and Rav Saadia. The King told Rav Saadia "How dare he insult you, my
appointee. Cut off his tongue". Rav Saadia investigated and found the
person was horribly poor--he gave him a new job. A few months later the
King and Rav Saadia passed by and the person came out and praised Rav
Saadia. The King angrily retorted "I thought I told you to cut off his
tongue". Rav Saadia politely responded: "I did--I gave him a new one"

The moral? It is important for middle management (like Rav Saadia and
the lan manager) to realize that they can positively influence people
and inject halacha into secular situations.

Russell Jay Hendel; Phd ASA RHendel @ mcs drexel edu
Dept of Math and Comp Science
Moderator; Rashi Is Simple


From: Jay R. Shayevitz, MD, MS <jayshay@...>
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 10:12:18 -0400
Subject: Work assignments for non-religious Jewish colleagues

As a religious Jew, I am the medical director of an inpatient pediatric
unit. We are responsible for 24 hour-a-day in-house physician coverage
of this unit.  Medical coverage is provided by three full-time
physicians and 5 additional physicians who work on a contingent basis.
One of the contingent physicians is Jewish, but not religious.

The contingent physicians are responsible for coverage of 5 12
hour-shifts per week, including Friday nights and Saturday daytimes, and
assign themselves their own shifts.

My question is: What, if anything, should I do regarding the
non-religious Jewish contingent physician when he volunteers for Friday
night or Saturday daytime shifts?  Should I tell him not to take those
particular shifts, or merely strongly suggest that he not?  Or should I
not pay any attention at all?

What are my Halachic responsibilities in this case?

[Just to re-iterate an oft posted remark of mine, the purpose of this
list is to discuss issues such as the ones raised above, but the
discussions should not be taken as a Halachik ruling. The only way to
properly answer a question such as above is to ask you rabbinic
authority. However, the discussions here may help one in understanding
the bounds of the question, and possibly help in the discussion with the
posek. For the rest of us, it is a discussion in Torah. Mod.]

Jay R. Shayevitz, MD, MS, FAAP            Voice:   248-424-5776
Medical Director, Children's Unit                  248-424-5732
Providence Hospital and Medical Centers   Fax:     248-424-3255
Southfield, MI  48075-4818                Pager:   810-345-0101
            (Opinions are my own, not my employer's)


From: Shmuel Himelstein <shmuelh@...>
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 13:27:06 +0300 
Subject: Zmanim

I found an excellent source for all the different Zmanim at
http://www.kashrut.com/zemanim/ <http://www.kashrut.com/zemanim/> . In
fact, when I asked the Webmaster for the Zmanim in Pune, India (which my
company needed), he added that city to the list!

Shmuel Himelstein


End of Volume 28 Issue 68