Volume 28 Number 69
                 Produced: Thu Jun 10  6:04:47 US/Eastern 1999

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

FAXES and Eggs Born on Shabbath
         [Russell Hendel]
Feet together during Kedusha
         [Avraham Reiss]
T'fillin on Chol Hamoed (6)
         [Israel Rubin, Roni Grosz, <NJGabbai@...>, Binyomin Segal,
Akiva Miller, Michael R. Stein]
Yom Tov Sheni Questions
         [Elie Rosenfeld]
Zohar on Tefillin during Chol Hamoed
         [Ari Kahn]


From: Russell Hendel <rhendel@...>
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 22:00:57 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: FAXES and Eggs Born on Shabbath

Just a quick note on the FAX ON FRIDAY-RECEIVED ON SHABBAT issue raised
in V28n64 and answered in v28n66.

This whole topic was discussed in Mail Jewish about 2 years ago. To
summarize one point of the thread I cited a discussion I had with
Rabbi Avrohom Litvin of Louisville, who introduced me to this topic.
After I claimed (like David v28n66) that a fax could be read, Rabbi Litvin
reminded me of the concept of NOLAD--lit. BEING BORN.

According to Jewish law, e.g. an egg BORN on Shabbath cannot be used
on Shabbath even though no Biblical commandment is being broken.

We had a long discussion in mail jewish on why exactly eggs cannot be
used on Shabbath. One suggested approach is that a BORN EGG has a NEW
STATUS--before Shabbath it was part of the chicken, while now it has the
STATUS of an EGG (e.g. you can point to it and talk about eating it).

In a similar manner--a piece of paper that received a fax message on
it on shabbath has achieved a NEW STATUS--it no longer has the status
of being a piece of BLANK paper but rather it has the status of a FAX
Hence it is "BORN" and should not be read (till after Shabbath).

This posting has nostalgically reminded me of some nifty halachic
discussions. The talmud actually compares wisdom to wine---they
naturally improve with age...who knows maybe we can get a better
vintage of discussion on NOLAD this time (it is a challenging task)

Russell Jay Hendel; Phd ASA RHendel @ mcs drexel edu
Dept of Math and Comp Science
Moderator Rashi is Simple


From: Avraham Reiss <areiss@...>
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 14:36:25 +0300
Subject: Re: Feet together during Kedusha

Regarding the question:

"A few years ago, I broached the question of whether anyone has found a
source requiring one to keep his feet together while he recites
Kaddish. All I've found are sources for the Amidah and for the
Kedushah. Would anyone have any sources either way.?"

Shmuel Himelstein

- I once saw that the idea of keeping one's feet together in Kedusha is 
to make ourselves as the angels. Angels only have one foot, as in
Yechezkel 'Veragleyhem regel Yeshara' (tr: 'and their feet are a
straight foot').  The original 'Kadosh Kadosh' of Kedusha is also 
from Yechezkel, and I think the adjacency is what determined here, 
i.e. that when saying it one shoud be as the angels.

[Note: this addresses Kedusha, but not the question Shmuel asks about
Kaddish - Mod.]

 Avraham Reiss
 Jerusalem  ISRAEL
 www:   <http://www.bis.co.il>
 email: <areiss@...>  <support@bis.co.il>


From: Israel Rubin <Israel_Rubin@...>
Subject: Re: T'fillin on Chol Hamoed

Immanuel Burton, at the end of his excellent & thorough discussion of
the subject (#66), leaves us with 3 questions, as follows:

"(1) If the Remo is generally followed, why do most people follow a
different ruling and take their tefillin off before Hallel on Chol
Ha'Moed Pesach?

(2) If the Mishnah Berurah says that the Sheliach Tzibur should take his
tefillin off after Hallel, why does no-one seem to do this?

(3) Why do Ashkenazim take their tefillin off before Musaf on Rosh
Chodesh if they do not say "Keser" in Kedushah (the Zohar's statement

In response:

1) The Mishna Berurah (who says to take them off before Hallel) is not
disputing the Ramah on his own - he quotes earlier sources including the
Mogen Avrohom. Furthermore, this issue is part of the larger issue of
whether to wear T'fillin on Chol Hamoed altogether. (The reason given to
take off T'fillin before Hallel, is because there are those who say not
to put them on altogether.) Whereas the Ramah rules to wear them & make
a bracha, most authorities rule that even those who put them on do not
make the bracha. Meaning that we give more weight to the opinion that
holds not to wear T'fillin then the Ramah did.

2) Immanuel and I must have never crossed paths in shul (on Chol Hamoed
at least). I've never seen anyone not do this.

3) This is a question that I believe the Poskim themselves were somewhat
unsure about. It may be solely because of the Zohar.

On another issue, there was some disagreement expressed (#65) with
regards to how many people must be available to listen to Kaddish. The
Mishnah Berurah (55:32) says there must be at least 6 (& possibly 9,
according to some opinions).

From: Roni Grosz <roni.grosz@...>
Date: Wed, 09 Jun 1999 08:59:06 +0200
Subject: Re: T'fillin on Chol Hamoed

> Given that the Remo's ruling is a minority minhag, the argument for
> taking one's tefillin off before Hallel is that it is following a minhag
> different from the one that the congregation is following.  However,
> this argument is not a very convincing one on the grounds that most
> congregations start off with people following different minhogim, namely
> whether tefillin are put on in the first place or not.  The argument of
> being allowed to have these different minhogim is that it is well known
> that some people do put on tefillin and that some don't.  If that is the
> case, then why can't the different minhag of taking tefillin off before
> Musaf rather than for Hallel be allowed?


The fact that many congregations start with Tefilin-donners and those
who don't on Chol HaMoed doesn't justify this wrong practice. If
possible the congregation should make two minyianim, one with and
without Tefilin. If this is not done I am afraid that the minority group
is transgressing "lo titgodedu" (you should not make separate
fractions") although I would not know what to advise them (probably
davening without minyian and later joining a minyian to hear Borchu,
repetition of Amida, Kedusha, Kriat HaTorah, etc ...)

Roni Grosz

From: <NJGabbai@...>
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 09:45:01 EDT
Subject: Re: T'fillin on Chol Hamoed

> (1) If the Remo is generally followed, why do most people follow a
>  different ruling and take their tefillin off before Hallel on Chol
>  Ha'Moed Pesach?

Almost everyone, at least the Ashkenazim , follow that both on Chol
HaMoed Pesach and Sukkot (with the exception of the first weekday of
Chol HaMoed Pesach), the Tefillin are removed before Hallel.  Only on
Rosh CHodesh are they removed before musaf.

>  (2) If the Mishnah Berurah says that the Sheliach Tzibur should take his
>  tefillin off after Hallel, why does no-one seem to do this?

Because the Mishnah Brurah, firstly is the Sefard Minhag, not the
Ashkenaz minhag.  Secondly, who said that no one disagrees with it.  Did
you look in the Shulchan Aruch?

>  (3) Why do Ashkenazim take their tefillin off before Musaf on Rosh
>  Chodesh if they do not say "Keser" in Kedushah (the Zohar's statement
>  aside)?

I guess because Musaf is a Yom Tov type Shemoneh Esray.


From: Binyomin Segal <bsegal@...>
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 07:34:11 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: T'fillin on Chol Hamoed

 One further thought for Immanuel Burton and the difference between
sukkot and pesach. On chol hamoed sukkot the full hallel is said, which
is a clear indication that it is a yom tov. on pesach, only the "half"
hallel is said, which is just like rosh chodesh, and thus not a clear
indication that it is yom tov.

just a thought,
personally, i don't wear tefillin at all on chol hamoed
binyomin segal

From: Akiva Miller <kgmiller@...>
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 1999 09:33:55 -0400 
Subject: T'fillin on Chol Hamoed

It has been suggested to remove tefillin on Sukkos prior to Hallel,
because the retzua (strap) on the hand would be a chatzitza
(interruption) between the hand and the lulav.

Why would this justify removing the tefillin entirely? Why not just
remove the strap from the hand, and wind it around the lower arm? Having
the strap on the hand is certainly NOT an essential part of the mitzva
of tefillin, so why are we abandoning it entirely, just because it can't
be done with all the frills?

The common custom that I have seen, on a normal (non-Chol HaMoed) Monday
and Thursday, is that the person who raises the Torah for Hagbah does
NOT remove his tefillin entirely. He merely removes the strap from his
hand so that he can grasp the Torah better. And then he replaces the
strap after the Torah has been put away. Why not do the same on Sukkos?

Akiva Miller

From: Michael R. Stein <stein@...>
Date: Wed, 9 Jun 1999 09:25:52 +0200 (MET DST)
Subject: T'fillin on Chol Hamoed

In Volume 28 Number 66, Immaanuel Burton
(<iburton@...>)wrote at length about this question,
including the following paragraph:

"Everyone also seems to agree that on first weekday day of Chol Ha'Moed
Pesach the tefillin are taken off before Musaf on account of the Torah
reading being one of the Parshiot in the tefillin, and so it is
appropriate to keep one's tefillin on for this reading.  This in itself
sets a precedent for keeping one's tefillin on during Hallel on Chol
Ha'Moed Pesach."

I have been spending the year in Strasbourg, which has a minhag of its
own (called Nusach Ashkenaz) which has been maintained for hundreds of
years.  This nusach ashkenaz does not differ in its wording from what we
would call nusach ashkenaz in "ashkenazi" shuls in the States, England,
or Israel, but there are many customs distinct from those places. Alsace
seems to be almost the only place left in the world where this minhag is
maintained (there may be a few shuls in Switzerland as well).  It was
also practiced in certain German communities along the Rhine which no
longer exist. It is definitely distinct from the version of the German
minhag practiced in modern-day London.

There is a book -- perhaps by Prof. Ta Shma of Bar Ilan -- called
"Shorshei Minhag Ashkenaz" which discusses this minhag in many details.
Until I came here, I never understood what he was talking about.

NOW TO THE POINT. The practice here is for the Congregation to remove
their t'fillin before Hallel on chol hamo'ed, both Sukkot and Pesach,
with a single exception: the day of chol hamo'ed Pesach on which we read
"kadesh li".  That is, this one day does NOT serve as a precedent for
"late" removal of t'fillin on the other days of chol hamo'ed Pesach.

Mike Stein


From: Elie Rosenfeld <erosenfe@...>
Date: Mon, 7 Jun 1999 09:59:21 -0400
Subject: Yom Tov Sheni Questions

[Note: Yom Tov Sheni has been discussed quite extensively in volumes 20
and 23, and the Shavuot question has been dealt with there as well. If
someone would review the material there and summarize for the list that
would be appreciated. Mod.]

A couple of questions came up over Shavuos regarding the basis of Yom Tov

First, some quick background: All the Biblical holidays - i.e., Pesach
(start and end thereof), Shavous, Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, Sukkos, and
Shmini Atzeres - are designated as one-day holidays in the Torah.
Originally, when the day of the new moon was declared based on witnesses,
the message as to whether the outgoing month had 29 or 30 days didn't reach
outside Eretz Yisrael [the land of Israel] until mid-month, so the holidays
were kept there for two days out of doubt.  Since Rosh Hashanah occurs
right at the start of the month, it was kept for two days even in Eretz
Yisrael.  Today, although we have a fixed Jewish calendar and there is no
doubt as to the length of months, we still observe these second days of Yom
Tov ["Yom Tov Sheni"] due to the principle of "Minhag Avosenu B'Yadenu"
[our forefathers' customs must be perpetuated].

Now for the questions:

1) Why does Yom Tov Sheni apply to Shavous?  Its date is not based on any
given day of the month, but rather a fixed number of days (50 of course)
after the first day of Pesach.  Surely by then, the news as to how many
days Adar lasted, and thus the "real" day for Pesach, is assumed to have
reached everywhere.  In fact, it seems that the news about the length of
any given month is assumed to have reached everywhere no later that the
start of the next month, or else there would be multiple doubts introduced
and the need for *three* (or more!) day Yom Tovim.

2) Conversely, was there ever a time that even Yom Kippur was kept for two
days outside Eretz Yisrael?  Understanding that at a minhag-avosenu level
we do not do it today because of the difficulty of fasting for two days,
but back when there was a *real* doubt, did people outside of Eretz Yisrael
have to do so?  (Now *there's* a compelling reason for Aliyah!)

Any further analysis that would shed light on these questions would be

Elie Rosenfeld


From: Ari Kahn <kahnar@...>
Date: Tue, 08 Jun 1999 21:19:13 +0300
Subject: Re: Zohar on Tefillin during Chol Hamoed

> Incidentally, the Zohar says that anyone who wears his tefillin during
> Musaf is liable to death.

The Zohar (Zohar Chadosh Munkotch edition 8a) says that putting Tifilin
on Chol Hamoed, is guilty of a death penalty - not only mussof. See the
discussion in the Beit Yosef section 31. Also see the fascinating
article by the late Professor Yakov Katz reprinted in his "Halacha and
Kabbala", where he cites all types of responses to this Zohar -ranging
from not making the bracha, to the incredible "compromise" of putting on
empty boxes, whereby the wearer could on the one hand not separate
himself from the custom, and on the other hand not break the ethic
described in the Zohar.

Ari Kahn


End of Volume 28 Issue 69