Volume 32 Number 18
                 Produced: Wed May  3  6:36:28 US/Eastern 2000

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Coca Cola (was re: Cotton Seed Oil)
         [Carl M. Sherer]
Cotton-Seed Oil (3)
         [Bill Bernstein, Janet Rosenbaum, Frank Silbermann]
Ending the Yom Tovim
         [Ed Norin]
Kitniyot Derivatives on Pesach (was Cotton-Seed Oil)
         [Michael Shoshani]
Kosher Gelatin
         [Beth Horowitz]
Mi-sod Hakhamim U-nevonim
         [Baruch J. Schwartz]
Seder on Motzei Shabbat
         [Jeff Fischer]
Yeast on Pesach
         [Jonathan Grodzinski]


From: Carl M. Sherer <cmsherer@...>
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 18:14:06 +0200
Subject: Coca Cola (was re: Cotton Seed Oil)

David Charlap writes:

> He would not go so far as to permit us to use products with kitniyot-
> based oils and syrups, however.  He said that the reason is that people
> are too emotionally tied to the way we observe Pesach today to ever
> accept such a "leniency".  (eg: "Drink ordinary Coca-Cola on Pesach?
> Not in my house, you apikores!")

Interestingly, here in Eretz Yisrael, Rav Landau of Bnei Brak gives
hashgacha to Coca Cola for Pesach. He does not give hashgacha to Diet
Coke. The same also applies to Sprite and Diet Sprite.

I have vague memories of my childhood in the US that there was peanut
oil with a Kosher (non-kitniyos) hashgacha for Pesach. This goes back
over 30 years. Does anyone else recall such a thing?

Carl M. Sherer
mailto:<cmsherer@...> or mailto:sherer@actcom.co.il
Please daven and learn for a Refuah Shleima for my son, Baruch Yosef ben
Adina Batya among the sick of Israel.  Thank you very much.


From: Bill Bernstein <bbernst@...>
Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 17:15:59 -0500
Subject: Re: Cotton-Seed Oil

Thanks for the numerous responses to my query.  Somehow they left me
feeling unsatisfied just like, well, a Pesach meal.  I am still in the
dark as to how cotton seed could be considered kitnios.  We don't eat
the plant at all.  The seeds themselves AFAIK are not edible or at least
not normally eaten.  If we say they grow in a pod like peas then what
about peppers, paprika, okra and the like which also grow this way, and
which we certainly eat.  As far as other oils: peanut oil is available
in the US, although many chareidim I know do not use it.  Corn oil, as
far as I can tell, falls into the same category as other derivatives,
like corn sweeteners and I guess the general custom is not to use it.
Olive oil is wonderful, except for cakes and sweets (yech!).  We used to
be able to get grape-seed oil, and why that stopped I don't know.

From: Janet Rosenbaum <jerosenb@...>
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 11:45:46 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Cotton-Seed Oil

A.J.Gilboa <bfgilboa@...> writes:
> But if you want a really good question about "qitniyot", perhaps one of
> you Yankees can tell me why peanut oil and corn oil with hashgaha for
> Pesah no longer exist in the US? They used to be cerified by the OU.

I don't know about corn oil, but Rokeach peanut oil exists, certified by
OU.  R Feinstein's tshuva on peanut oil is Iggerot Moshe III O.H. #63.
There is a good overview of this in R Sheinkopf's _Issues in Jewish
Dietary Laws: "Gelatin" "Kitniyyot and their Derivatives"_.


From: Frank Silbermann <fs@...>
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 20:18:02 -0500 (CDT)
Subject:  Cotton-Seed Oil 

Bill Bernstein asked fore the rationale for making cotton-seed kitnios.
Danny Skaist replied that "now cotton seed is mixed with wheat to bake
bread (much the same way that soy is mixed with foods to expand them),
thereby making it "Human food" and therefore kitnyot."  I don't see the
implication.  All kosher non-kityot kosher l'pesach food is human food.
What does the word "kitniyot" actually mean?

David Charlap points out that: "According to my rabbi, the actual text
of the Ashkenazic ban on kitniyot applies only to the kitniyot
themselves (and flours and baked goods made from same, of course), but
not substances derived from kitniyot.  ...  Personally, I suspect this
practice of going beyond the letter and spirit of the original ban may
now have the status of `minhag yisrael' (a custom that everybody follows
- which has the status of a law), since it's been observed for over a
generation."  That's impossible -- even the original kitniot ban lacks
that status (never having been accepted by Sephardim).

I believe it was Rav. Moshe Feinstein who, when poskening that peanuts
are kosher for Passover even for Askenazim (barring a family custom not
to eat them), pointed out that we shouldn't add to a non-universal

Frank Silbermann
New Orleans, Louisiana


From: Ed Norin <EngineerEd@...>
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 17:44:51 EDT
Subject: Ending the Yom Tovim

The last day of Passover is only a Rabbinic Yom Tov in our day of a fix
calendar.  There is also the general rule of suffiq (questions) on a
Rabbinic mitzvah, we should go lenient.  If that is true, why do we wait
as late to end the eighth day of Passover as we wait to end Shabbot?
Shouldn't we end this day about 20 minutes earlier?


From: Michael Shoshani <sh0shani@...>
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 13:04:16 -0500
Subject: Kitniyot Derivatives on Pesach (was Cotton-Seed Oil)

In Mail.Jewish Vol 32 N0 14, David Charlap wrote:

>He [David Charlap's rabbi] would not go so far as to permit us to use
>products with kitniyot- 
>based oils and syrups, however.  He said that the reason is that people
>are too emotionally tied to the way we observe Pesach today to ever
>accept such a "leniency".  (eg: "Drink ordinary Coca-Cola on Pesach?
>Not in my house, you apikores!")

I am Sephardic, and corn syrup would technically be permissable in my
house over Pesach PROVIDED it had adequate supervision.  I do not bring
"ordinary" soft drinks into the house over Pesach; this is not because
they are kitniyot but rather because since the mashgichim are working
for an Ashkenazi institution, and they do not consume kitniyot during
Pesach, they are not going to be careful to make sure that no hametz
gets into the "ordinary" kitniyot product.  Because they will be working
under the theory that no religious Jew would be drinking it during

Michael Shoshani
Chicago, IL


From: Beth Horowitz <BoredinSD@...>
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 15:49:44 EDT
Subject: Kosher Gelatin

<< This sounds very similar to the status of gelatin.  The Conservative
 rabbinate (and possibly some minority-opinion Orthodox rabbis) say that
 the process of converting bones into gelatin causes sufficient change as
 to render gelatin kosher even if it is derived from non-kosher animals. 
 The majority of Orthodox rabbis, however, hold that this is not true -
 that the process of making gelatin can not make the substance kosher. >>

Does kosher gelatin come from animals though?  I saw kosher marshmallows
made w/kosher gelatin, but they are pareve.  If they did come from an
animal source though wouldn't they be fleishig?  This could be argued
w/the same idea about rennet in cheese.  Conservative rabbis say the
enzymes from the lining of a calf's stomach have changed so much in
their chemical composition (at some point rendering them unedible) so it
can be used w/milk in the making of cheese and still be considered
kosher.  Orthodox rabbis do not agree however.  This is the same idea
stated above in relation to the gelatin.  (If kosher gelatin is in fact
not made w/animal parts, then please forgive me for bringing this up, as
the argument of course does not apply)


From: Baruch J. Schwartz <schwrtz@...>
Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 09:04:40 +0300
Subject: Mi-sod Hakhamim U-nevonim

David Herskovic asks:

> Why is the piece beginning 'misod chachomim unevonim' not said before
> the Yotsros for Musaf on Shabbos Shekolim and Shabbos Ha'Chodesh and at
> the beginning of the Krovets on Purim morning?

A.J. Gilboa's response that this passage is" a kind of "rshut" in which
the hazzan prefaces his recitation of the piyyutim...by a "rationale"
for interrupting the flow of the "standard" tfilla by interjecting
piyyutim" is correct, though the passage was probably not introduced to
overcome any real objections of posqim but is rather rhetorical in

Mi-sod hakhamim u-nevonim was not invented for the yamim noraim; only
the formula "bitfilla u-vetahanunum, lehallot pene etc." is a
specialized version used only on these days. The original, "normal" form
of the passage ends simply "beshir u-renanim, lehodot ulehallel pene
shokhen me`onim", and this is said on all occasions other than yamim

Now for the orginal question. (Please refer to the introductions to the
Goldschmidt mahzorim for details.)

The piyyutim inserted into the repetition of the amida are called
qerovot. ("Yotzrot" should properly be used to refer to the piyyutim
inserted into shacharit before the amida, beginning with the "yotzer"

The qerovot have two forms. In the simpler form, the piyyut is divided
into the number of sections corresponding to the number of berachot in
that day's amida, each one inserted just before the conclusion of the
beracha to which it pertains. There are generally seven sections, since
most such piyyutim were composed for Shabbat and yom tov, so this form
is called the shiv`ata. The qerova for Purim, however, has eighteen
sections, ingeniously composed to fit around the verses "va-ye'ehav
hamelekh" and "umordechai yatza", two verses of redemption in the
megilla, each of which, the payyetan discovered, contains 18 words (well
almost; to arrive at 18 in the first one he combined "et" with "esther"
but kept "mi-kol" as a separate word twice). His signature, ELAZR BYRBY
KYLYR HZK , also contains eighteen letters, and he has inserted it into
the piyyut as well. By the way, the presence of eighteen berachot
indicates that when he composed this piyyut there were still 18, not 19,
berachot in the amida he recited.

The more complex form is called the qedushta, in which a long string of
piyyutim is inserted around the first three berachot (avot, gevurot and
qedusha). It is here that we meet the magen recited in avot, the
mehayyeh recited in gevurot, and the meshalesh and everything that
follows it, including the silluq, leading up to the qedusha. The
piyyutim of the qedushta-form are longer, more numerous and much more
elaborate, and this gave rise to the "reshut" section, recited before
the magen, and hence to its preface, mi-sod hakhamim u-nevonim.

In today's Ashkenazi tradition, the qedushta survives in the shaharit
and musaf amida of Rosh Hashanah (although in the musaf of the second
day the piyyutim of avot and gevurot have been abandoned, so no reshut
is said and consequently misod is omitted too), in shaharit, musaf,
minha and neilah of Yom Kippur, and in Shaharit of festivals and special
shabbatot.  So this is where we encounter mi-sod hakhamim u-nevonim.

The shiv`ata-form survives in the Musaf of Shabbat Sheqalim and
HaHodesh.  The shiv`ata was probably designed specifically for Musaf,
which, in Eretz Yisrael did not included a qedusha at all. Shiv`atot
were originally composed for the musaf of the first day of Pesah and
Shemini Atzeret, in which Tal and Geshem were recited, though only a
small section is now recited. In addition to the 18-part piyyut of Purim
discussed above, there is also one for Tisha B'Av in western
Ashkenaz. As this form never contained a reshut, it does not include
misod hakhamim u-nevonim.

May we soon see the Ashkenazi world return to the study and recitation
of the piyyutim composed by our ancestors.


From: Jeff Fischer <NJGabbai@...>
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 16:51:29 EDT
Subject: Re: Seder on Motzei Shabbat

You can use Challah for the 1st mean Friday night and for the 2nd and
3rd meal if it is before the deadline.

Usually, people divide the 2nd meal into 2.  They say kiddush, hamotzi
and take a bite of something (cake), then bench, take a walk and come
back and wash again for Shalosh Seudot.



From: Jonathan Grodzinski <JGrodz@...>
Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 20:22:24 EDT
Subject: Yeast on Pesach

Yeast is one of the three common methods of aereating a flour and liquid

1. when sugar is added to yeast in a warm environment fermentation
begins and gasses are produced. If the yeast is in a flour and water mix
at the time, the gasses cause the dough to expand - the degree to which
it expands before collapsing is dependendent on the
"strength"(determined by gluten and protein content) of the flour.

 2. chemical aereating agents such as bicarbonate of soda, are commonly
used in scones and some cakes and to a small extent in biscuits.

3.  Egg (either whole - or better still whites only) when whipped trap
air particles and subsequent gentle addition of sugar and flour (for
which on Pesach substitute potato flour almonds hazelnut matza meal etc)
ensures that the full mix is still aereated.

All these methods ensure that the baked product is soft and spongy. So
long as none of the agents are chometz in themselves (and in England,
fresh yeast is most certainly not chametz) there can be no reason not to
use any of them (subject to obtaining them with a Pesach hechsher of

Jeanette Friedman writes
 Do you mean to say I can buy fleishman's yeast in a package (live or
 need to reactivate), mix it into say, hazelnut or potato flour and eggs
 with milk and vanilla, cocoa powder and sugar and make a Pesach dough?

Well the answer is that you could (I don't know about Fleishman's yeast)
but I don't think it would work as a raising agent for the rest of the
ingredients. Yeast is a dough activator and not a sponge activator.

Where you may not use any of the aereating agents is in the production
of Matza (or with flour and water) because they hasten the chimmutz
(leavening process)

Jonathan Grodzinski (fourth generation Master Baker - London, UK)


End of Volume 32 Issue 18