Volume 32 Number 20
                 Produced: Thu May  4  6:44:57 US/Eastern 2000

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Cotton Seeds as Kitniot
         [Danny Skaist]
Cotton-Seed Oil
         [Carl Singer]
Drug Problems in the Yeshiva World
         [Frank Silbermann]
Guaranteeing Accessibility to people with Disabilities
         [Eliezer Finkelman]
Kitniyot - Bateil Berov
         [David Schiffmann]
Kosher post-date get?
         [Chaim Mateh]
"Kosher" prenups
         [Sheldon Meth]
Lost Tefillin request
         [Dov Zakheim]
Mizmor L'Dovid
         [Rachi Messing]
Not eating Nuts on Yomim Noraim
         [Carl Singer]
Seder on Motzei Shabbat
         [I. Harvey Poch]
Two Questions
         [Esther Zar]
Women at Funerals
         [Yisrael Medad]
Yiddish name question
         [Shlomo Abeles]


From: Danny Skaist <danny@...>
Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 14:34:21 +0200 
Subject: Cotton Seeds as Kitniot

> From: Frank Silbermann <fs@...>
> Bill Bernstein asked fore the rationale for making cotton-seed kitnios.
> Danny Skaist replied that "now cotton seed is mixed with wheat to bake
> bread (much the same way that soy is mixed with foods to expand them),
> thereby making it "Human food" and therefore kitnyot."  I don't see the
> implication.  All kosher non-kityot kosher l'pesach food is human food.
> What does the word "kitniyot" actually mean?

	Kitniyot is described by the Rambam in "laws of kelayim" where
different plants may not be grown together.  I don't have it with me and
I really don't remember all of it, but among the characteristics of
kitniot is that it be used for human food, grown in fields etc.
	Cotton filled all of the Rambams requrements for kitniot except
that it was not food.  Today it is eaten in some breads.  (I personally
don't think soy is food for human beings, how about flax?)
	There is no connection between the english word "legume" and the
Hebrew word "kitniot".  Buckwheat is a fruit but is kitniot, Peanuts are
legumes but may not be kitniot because they grow under the ground.



From: Carl Singer <CARLSINGER@...>
Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 07:23:33 EDT
Subject: Re: Cotton-Seed Oil

In a message dated 5/3/00 6:35:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Carl Sherer 

> I have vague memories of my childhood in the US that there was peanut
> oil with a Kosher (non-kitniyos) hashgacha for Pesach. This goes back
> over 30 years. Does anyone else recall such a thing?

I certainly DO recall (non-vague) peanut oil as being the approved and
commonly used cooking oil for Pesach -- I'd say over 40 years.  As I
recall, also, (perhaps vague) the Planter's bottles had a perferated
blue tab (same color as label) that said "Kosher for Passover" -- this
allowed the storekeeper to tear off the tab after Pesach thus not
creating the impression of "old" or outdated merchandise.

BTW -- A favorite receipe (year round) was to take some lettuce (5 cents
a head?) marinate it in peanut oil (let it stand 'til it got a bit
wilted) and sprinkle liberally with salt -- very tasty -- Also high
cholesteral and not so hot for you blood pressure.

Carl Singer

We have 6 pounds of hand shmura left over -- opening bid 3 cents a pound :)


From: Frank Silbermann <fs@...>
Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 09:00:18 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Drug Problems in the Yeshiva World

Chaim Shapiro in v31n92 writes
> I also know of boys, who received their Rosh Yeshiva's highest accolades
> and praise, when the boys, in fact, were not virgins, and had been
> involved in the drug world for over a decade!

I have heard (please confirm if true) that telling lies to promote a
shidduch is permissible.  (I admit that the very idea makes me

Russell Hendel in v32n16 writes
> What **is** being done about drugs in the Yeshiva world?
> How widespread is it?

Wouldn't admitting the problem be loshen hara?

> I concede to David Zwillenberg that the situation is complex but there
> are still known concepts that can significantly ameliorate such situations
> (eg education, other outlets, etc).  Are they being applied?  And if not
> Why not?

Though the DARE program is popular in public schools, I've heard that it
is completely ineffective, and perhaps even counter-productive.  I
suppose we could expel boys who fail random urine testing (at least
those who do not pay full tuition).

I don't know how I could motivate someone to quit voluntarily, as I have
repeatedly failed to break my own moderate abuse of caffeine.

Frank Silbermann
New Orleans, Louisiana


From: Eliezer Finkelman <Finkelmans@...>
Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 04:28:35 EDT
Subject: Guaranteeing Accessibility to people with Disabilities

I have been asked to locate a oganizations that can help synagogues deal
with guaranteeing accessibility to people with disabilities.  I once
knew of an organization formed to do this work called Todah.  Can anyone
at Mail Jewish help me locate Todah or a similar group?

Eliezer Finkelman  


From: David Schiffmann <das1002@...>
Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 19:07:24 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Re: Kitniyot - Bateil Berov

> From: Shmuel Himelstein <shmuelh@...>
> A prominent Ashkenazic and Dati-Leumi Poseik in Jerusalem permits the
> use of chocolates made with kitniyot on Pesach, on the basis of the fact
> that it is Batel BeRov (the kitniyot are "cancelled out" by the majority
> of non-kitniyot ingredients). I don't know whether he insists that the
> chocolate be bought before Pesach, but it seems unlikely, as only
> Chametz is not Batel BeRov during Pesach. This Poseik not only rules
> that way, but practices what he preaches, and eats such chocolates on
> Pesach.
> Incidentally, using this logic, the number of products that would be
> available in Israel for Askenazim on Pesach would jump geometrically
> (jams, flavored yoghurts, cheeses, etc.).

On a related note, I was wondering if anyone on the list knows what
aspect of the food it is that makes those small plastic tubs of Israeli
salads one gets, 'le ochlei kitniot bilvad' [only for those who eat

All those tubs that I have seen on sale here in the UK have this marked
on them; some have obviously kitniot ingredients (e.g. humous), but
others do not, e.g. I think the aubergine salads. If there is some minor
ingredient(s) that makes them kitniot, would the above psak [ruling of
Jewish law] mean that they would be okay to eat even for those who don't
eat kitniot? I expect one would obviously have to consider each product
on a case-by-case basis.

Many thanks,

David Schiffmann


From: Chaim Mateh <chaimm@...>
Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 10:58:47 +0300
Subject: Kosher post-date get?

In Vol 32 #13, Batya Medad <isrmedia@...> wrote:
<<There are reasons besides divorce for a "pre-nup," or "post-dated" get.
If accident, injury, illness, etc, happens to the husband, and he would
have wanted his wife to be able to marry again, but not due to any
malicious intent she is halachikly unable.  I remember a neighbor of
mine telling me that he felt obligated, out of love, to have some way of
depositing a "get" for G-d forbid such an eventuality.>>

A prenup document would not solve the the above
husband-incapable-of-divorcing wife's agunah situation.  OTOH, the
implication is that some sort of "post-dated" get would.  Does anyone
know of such a "kosher" post-dated get that would free an agunah from a
husband who is physically incapable of giving a divorce?  If yes, who
are the Rabbis who authorize such a post-dated get and does anyone have
an example of the text of such a get?

Kol Tuv,


From: Sheldon Meth <SHELDON.Z.METH@...>
Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 09:41:22 -0400 
Subject: "Kosher" prenups

I would like to clarify, in reference to Rabbi Howard Jachter's posting
in V32N16, that I do not "officiate" nor ever have officiated at any

I did however, B"H, marry off two of my children in the last three
years, and neither had a prenup.

It is clear that the concept is not accepted by all of the Orthodox
community, and cannot be considered a "common practice among the
American Orthodox community" (which comment by a poster was the reason
for my original post).  I am concerned that this will lead to machlokes
[disagreement] and priud [division].  I agree, as per one poster, the
prenup is essentially unenforceable.  Furthermore, any enforcement by
the secular court system, IMHO, might render any subsequent Get a Get
Me'usa [forced - by the secular courts] and hence invalid anyway.

Without the concurrence and recommendation of ALL the gedolei haposkim
(and without getting into the who is a gadol mire), do we really want to
get involved in something that might lead to safek mamzerus, R"L?

I would also like to ask a simple question, which is raised whenever a
"novel" idea to solve the iguna problem is proposed: In the over 3300
years we've had the Torah, how come none of our chachmei kadmon [earlier
sages], who were certainly more versed in Torah and Hallachah than our
meager generation, ever came up with this (or any other viable,
universally accepted) idea?

-Sheldon Meth


From: Dov Zakheim <dzakheim@...>
Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 11:36:21 -0400 
Subject: Lost Tefillin request

If anyone found a pair of tefillin in the Palm Springs, CA or Los
Angeles area this past Friday (Isru Chag) , or since then, please
contact Reuven (Roger) Zakheim at

646-489-3662 (mobile)

Thank you.


From: Rachi Messing <rachim@...>
Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 00:35:34 -0400
Subject: Mizmor L'Dovid

As I was sitting in shul this shabbos it struck me that most shuls sing
Mizmor L'dovid as we put away the Torah in a responsive manner. Is there
any source for the entire kehal not saying a tfillah in its entirety?

Rachi, Devorah & Yaakov Messing - WE HAVE A HOUSE!!!!
2813 Cheswolde Road
Baltimore, MD    21209


From: Carl Singer <CARLSINGER@...>
Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 07:31:55 EDT
Subject: Not eating Nuts on Yomim Noraim

My wife's family is not to eat nuts during the Yomim Noraim -- she's a
Litvak (I hope this isn't loshen horah :) -- and a descendent on her
mother's side (hence food stuff?) from the Goan.  I'm not sure but I
believe it's somehow linked to the Hebrew word for nuts and its
similarity to other words -- Does anyone have insight on this and
similar customs?

We also do several "yehee ratzon's" re: food types (fish head  to  
pomegranate) at Rosh Hoshanah meals.

Carl Singer


From: I. Harvey Poch <harvpoch@...>
Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 13:45:23 -0400
Subject: Re: Seder on Motzei Shabbat

> Yisrael Medad <isrmedia@...>
> Do we use real bread for all the three meals or a appropriate
> substitute?  Do we bless and take a bite outside on the porch, clean
> and come in to finish the meal?  And if one doesn't have a porch, is
> out in the hall okay?  What is the procedure for the two daytime
> meals?  What about eating before Shacharit? What are the times that
> count? Must it all be on plastic or could the main part of the meal
> after HaMotzi be on regular Pesach dishes?

While I admit to having been around for Pesach in 1950 and 1954, I
remember nothing of those occasions. However, in 1974, 1977, 1981 and
1994, my wife and I prepared Pesach in our own home and, for the first
three of those years, had small children to involve.

It's interesting to do Bedikas Chametz on Thursday night - after the
Fast of the Firstborn, rather than before - and burn the chametz on
Friday (without saying Kol Chamirah), when eating it is permitted until
some 24 hours later.

Obviously, our entire house was Pesachdig before Thursday. We had put
away three small challah rolls, carefully wrapped in paper tissues. Two
were used on Friday night for the motzi. They rested on a paper tissue
on the table, and were covered with another paper tissue. We tore one
carefully into pieces small enough to pop into the mouths of the
children (I think we even did this in 1994, when the youngest was 13 and
the eldest 23!), and wrapped the crumbs immediately in the tissues,
which we put aside. Only then did we bring any dishes or cutlery to the
table. The rest of the meal was served on Pesachdig dishes, since the
regular ones had been sealed away. (Plastic, in my opinion, is
problematic, since you cannot dispose of the "chometzized" dishes before

On Shabbos morning, we davened at 6:00 - no late minyan - in order to
have time to eat the remaining two se'udos Shabbos. For 'lunch', at 8:00
am, we repeated the procedures of Friday night. When we finished, the
remaining bread and crumbs and tissues were flushed down the toilet, and
we said Kol Chamirah. For seudah shelishis, we ate fruit, as we often
do. (We could have saved the third challah, and eaten seudah shelishis
at 9:30 am.)

We did not find this at all difficult, even with small children - we
made a game of it for them. IY"H, may we be zocheh (deserving) to do
this with our grandchildren next year!

P.S. We are acquainted with someone who prefers to use a boiled matzah
instead of real challah. Let's say that his wife finds it *very*
difficult to get the soggy matzah out of the boiling water, and goes
through several boxes before obtaining enough 'unbroken'; ones for the


From: Esther Zar <ESTABESTAH@...>
Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 01:10:04 EDT
Subject: Two Questions

2 things :
sorry that these aren't major issue questions but i need to know-
1) does anyone know of any sources in terms of mefarshim/seforim for where i 
could find psukim in chumash where the yud gimel ikarim are derived from?
2) also, does anyone know of any sources in any part of tanach where the 
distinctions are defined (whether individually or comparitively) between 
kasher, tref and tameh?(i.e. megilat ESTHER etc.)

tanks, fish tanks,
esther but not as in the megila
p.s. if you do, i would appreciate it if you would e mail me a personal copy 
along with the one to jewish mail so that i can see it asap.


From: Yisrael Medad <isrmedia@...>
Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 22:13:03 +0300
Subject: Women at Funerals

Regarding Freda's posting:-
>However, I would submit that it is cruel to insist on the
>interpretations which exclude women, and an especial cruelty to deny
>women the right to be at funerals when the service is at the graveside

Truth tell, I've been to (lo aleinu) dozens and dozens of funerals and I
can't remember one where women were purposely and obvioulsy excluded
except at their own will (like at Chasidishe funerals), although the
custom in Yerushalayim of having sons not enter the cemetary at their
father's funeral is more common.

Yisrael Medad


From: Shlomo Abeles <sba@...>
Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 04:44:41 +1000
Subject: Yiddish name question

Shimon Lebowitz wrote
>...what the yiddish girl's name Genendel meant.

I assume it is from the Yiddish "genad" or "genod".  which I think is
how we "teitched" the Hebrew word "Chen" - which Artscroll translates as

So it possibly means that the child is a gift - by the grace of Hashem
or that it is a graceful child.



End of Volume 32 Issue 20