Volume 32 Number 73
                 Produced: Sun Jul  2 11:38:24 US/Eastern 2000

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

         [Avi Feldblum]
The bedrock of the Redemption?
         [Perets Mett]
Computer Course For Frum Person
         [Shimon Lebowitz]
Guaranteeing Accessibility to people with Disabilities
         [Nina Butler]
John Cardinal O'Connor
         [Aliza N. Fischman]
Keys on Shabbat
         [Andrew Klafter]
Keys on Shabbos
         [Shimon Lebowitz]
Kosher vs. M'hadrin
         [Shimon Lebowitz]
Pre-Chuppah Wedding Pictures
         [Shimon Lebowitz]
"Three Score and Ten"
         [Shimon Lebowitz]
Tikkyn layl Shavu'ot and Sefer HaMitzvot?
         [Dan Young]
Women and Curriculum
         [Nina Butler]


From: Avi Feldblum <mljewish@...>
Date: Sun, 2 Jul 2000 10:51:30 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Administrivia

Hello All,

With the beginning of the secular month of July, and especially since here
in the US there is a bit of vacation time associated with the July 4th
holiday here, I'm trying to catch up on some mail-jewish activity. I did a
review of the June backlog, and as far as I can see:

I have about 15 messages in the queue file from June but older than June

There are also 43 messages I just moved into the queue file from a
pre-edit queue file. Messages usually go there because of one of three
*) where the original message either had an entire issue quoted, or
contained an HTML version of the submission following the text version.
*) was sent to the <mail-jewish@...> address rather than
*) contain text (usually in the signature portion) that mess up my

I had not gotten to those at all during June.

There are 19 messages in a "Reply Required" queue, where I need to discuss
something about the submission with the originator, and I have not yet
had that conversation.

I'm hoping with the extra time right now, I will be able to clean out a
significant portion of this backlog from June. Items that are in the
backlog from earlier than June, I will look at afterward.

A short note, I somehow forwarded back a message sent to the list that I
meant to be moving to a Reply-Required queue. Sorry about that, and just

OK now back to our reqular scheduled (and for this issue, possible
slightly backlogged) discussions.

Avi Feldblum
mail-jewish Moderator


From: Perets Mett <p.mett@...>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 17:01:22 +0100
Subject: The bedrock of the Redemption?

>To quote the Yerushalmi Brachot, the redemption of Israel comes very
>slowly. The Zionist movement, which began 100 years ago, set the bedrock
>for the greater redemption that was to come.

Where does this strange notion come from?

We are now in the period of ikveso dimshicho and are witness to the 
precursor events of the Great Redemption.

In what sense did this begin with "The Zionist movement, which began 
100 years ago"?

This is entirely fanciful.

I do not know how one measures the bits of redemption which are coming
slowly. If it is the resettlement of Erets Yisroel, that began long
before the Zionists. The talmidim of the Baal Shem Tov and the Vilner
Goon began their settlement over 200 years ago.

With respect to the writer, the early Zionist movement did not even 
care about resettling Jews in Erets Yisroel and would have been happy 
with Uganda and other places.

Perets Mett


From: Shimon Lebowitz <shimonl@...>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 07:56:00 +0300
Subject: Re: Computer Course For Frum Person

Yitzchak Hirshman <yhirshman@...> wrote

> I am a Kollel man, 30+, from yerushalayim with basic knowledge of
> computers. I am looking for a course (ultimately a job) in computer
> programming fit for a frum person.
> "Gedola melacha shemechabedet et beala'ha" (Nedarim 49:1) Thanks alot.

First of all, I want to sincerely congratulate you on your decision.  It
is an unfortunate fact, that much of the kollel "establishment" here in
Israel, or at least the more militant elements of it, is strongly
opposed to such job training. (Heaven only knows why!)

I wont rate anything, but I can tell you that there is another
organization called 'Hamerkaz Hachareidi Lehachshara Miktzoit", which
runs courses in both Yerushalayim and Benei-Berak. (I personally have
heard of cases of Yerushalmim travelling to the B-B courses, so as not
to 'chas-vesholom' be seen and recognized, going to them here.)

I believe (not sure) that a major difference between the two schools is
the level of degree given, with Machon Lev's giving an academic degree
(longer syllabus too, i assume), and the Merkaz giving a tech degree.  I
think I have also heard that it aids in finding employment.

The offices of the Merkaz, here in Yerushalayim, are immediately at the
'knissa la`ir' (the main road entrance to the city), corner of Yafo and


Shimon Lebowitz                           mailto:<shimonl@...>
Jerusalem, Israel         PGP: members.xoom.com/shimonl/pubkey.htm


From: Nina Butler <nbutler@...>
Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 13:43:18 -0400
Subject: RE: Guaranteeing Accessibility to people with Disabilities

In response to Eliezer Finkelman's post:

Our mayor organized multi-task forces working on a year-long project
called "Disabilities Agenda 2000."  It was my impression, serving on the
Families, Seniors & Children Sector, that this was a national
initiative, filtered down to each state, and then city.  Spirituality
was part of our discussion, and GOVERNMENTAL monies were put aside to
make places of worship accessible.  Before committing Jewish dollars,
check out if any governmental monies are available.  This concern for
all citizens with special needs as being a higher priority than
separation-of-church-and-state is relatively new, so it might be 'in the
works' in your area, but don't give up!  You can call your local
officials, or try ARC (Association for Retarded Citizens) in your area.

Nina Butler


From: Aliza N. Fischman <fisch.chips@...>
Subject: John Cardinal O'Connor

Some prominent New York Rabbis attended the funeral for John Cardinal
O'Connor here in New York.  This brings up a few issues that my husband
Aharon and I were wondering about.  At issue here is not the question of
Jews entering a church.

John Cardinal O'Connor is being buried in a crypt underneath the altar
in St. Patrick's Cathedral.  Obviously the concept of burying someone in
a building is not in our tradition.

This got us to thinking- THEORETICALLY- If a Jewish leader needs to go
to an interfaith event in the church, is there a problem of Tamei Meit
(Impurification by means of being in the same building as a corpse)?

If the crypt makes it's own ohel (tent) is that an issue?  Is it an
issue at all if the corpses are those of non-Jews?

I'd be interested to hear people's takes on this.

Aliza (Novogroder) Fischman


From: Andrew Klafter <andrew.klafter@...>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 10:39:14 -0400
Subject: Re: Keys on Shabbat

> From: Janice Gelb <j_gelb@...>
> Y. Askotzky <sofer@...> wrote:
> > The heter for the belt has absolutely nothing to do with a shinui! The
> > key acts as an integral part of the belt and therefore it is
> > considered as clothing which we obviously know is permissible to wear
> > on shabbos! Its the same as the button on your shirt!
> I've always found this, and the "key as brooch item of jewelry," to be
> stretching the definition in the halacha although I know that
> technically it's permissible.

The difference, however, is that when the key is put in the middle of a
belt in a proper way, it is actually functioning as a link.  For
example, two holes are drilled, one on each side of the wide top of the
key, and the belt is attached to by links to each side of the key.  Now
the key is actuallly holding the belt together.  It is not a "broach" or
"jewelry", it is a link in a chain.

You are quite valid in finding this a bit contrived and only
"technically" permissable.  However, the rabbinic prohibition of
carrying in a carmelis (a semi-publich domain which is not privately
owned but does not meet the halakhic criteria for carrying in a
reshus-ha-rabim [biblically public domain]) is to prevent us from
mistakenly carrying in a reshus-ha-rabbim.  Thus, the halakha allows us
to contrive these "technnically-non-carrying" methods because they do
not truly run counter to the spirit of the rabbinic decree--i.e., while
we contrive these scenarios we are still reminded of the biblical
injunction not to carry in a reshus-ha-rabbim.

-Nachum Klafter


From: Shimon Lebowitz <shimonl@...>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 08:08:05 +0300
Subject: Re: Keys on Shabbos

Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz <sabbahillel@...> 
(who seems to have gotten a much longer email address!) said:

> What may be an urban legend tells of the teacher who came to Lakewood from
> Israel and carried his tallis to shul the first Shabbos he was there
> because he had never been in a community of that size that did not have an
> eruv.

Unfortunately, i find that many Israelis, who grow up in an eiruv
environment, seem to classify carrying on shabbat (at least
subconsciously) as one of 'those' laws... like Tuma and Tahara, Para
Aduma, or Korbanot. They make interesting learning, but... we dont DO
that stuff these days.

I do not prevent my family from carrying, but each winter, when a strong
storm raises the 'chashash' (doubt?) that the eiruv might have been
invalidated, i try to make a bit production of going to shul without
carrying, checking my pockets again at the door, and constantly
reminding the children that the eiruv might be down.

I have found that they *are* more aware of the problem, such as when
they visit places that are right on the edge of the local eiruv, etc.

Shimon Lebowitz                           mailto:<shimonl@...>
Jerusalem, Israel         PGP: members.xoom.com/shimonl/pubkey.htm


From: Shimon Lebowitz <shimonl@...>
Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2000 09:19:44 +0300
Subject: Re: Kosher vs. M'hadrin

> Is there anbody on this list who is willing (after 120 years) to look Rav
> Chaim Ozer Grodzinski in the eye and tell him that they were too observant
> to accept his heter ??

I am sorry, but i think this is an unfair question.  No one is doubting
the greatness of Rav Chaim Ozer, but Jewish history has been filled with
great rabbis whose opinions (and outright psakim - decisions) were *not*
accepted as, what I believe the moderator calls 'normative halacha'.

Who are we to 'look Rabi Yosi haGlili in the eye', or even to kiss his
feet??? But that doesnt mean I would accept his psak, and eat chicken
with milk (even when I lived in Haifa, assuming that was part of his

If the majority of poskim have never accepted this Rav Ch. Ozer's heter,
I dont have to be embarassed to say that that's why I didnt eat gelatin,
even after 120.

Shimon Lebowitz                           mailto:<shimonl@...>
Jerusalem, Israel         PGP: members.xoom.com/shimonl/pubkey.htm


From: Shimon Lebowitz <shimonl@...>
Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 00:50:16 +0300
Subject: Re: Pre-Chuppah Wedding Pictures

> [I'm curious. We discussed this a little bit in volume 20, where the
> consensus appeared to be that not being together, not seeing each other
> prior to the Chupa was a minhag, not a halacha. Does anyone have a
> citation of a Psak that forbids a bride and groom from taking wedding
> pictures together prior to the chupa? For this question, I am assuming
> that there is no issue of negiah, either based on no actual contact or a
> view that there is nothing derech chiba involved. Mod.]

If the bride and groom not seeing each other then is simply minhag, and
if the prohibition on touching 'derech chiba' is part of issur nidda (as
a result of menstrual impurity), then why should you make your
assumptions? Hasnt the bride immersed before she came to the wedding?

Shimon Lebowitz                           mailto:<shimonl@...>
Jerusalem, Israel         PGP: members.xoom.com/shimonl/pubkey.htm


From: Shimon Lebowitz <shimonl@...>
Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 08:16:33 +0300
Subject: Re: "Three Score and Ten"

David Lloyd-Jones <david.lloyd-jones@...> asks:

> "Three score and ten, or if by fortune..." is a common notion of a normal
> lifespan, coming from Psalm 90, I believe.
> In checking in Strong's Concordance, however, I find references to "three
> score and ten" in 21 or 22 other places.
> Is there a gematraic reason for this popularity of the number? Or any
> other reason?

The words "Three score and ten" do *not* appear in that psalm anyway,
just in the mind of the translator. The text reads 'shiv`im shana, ve`im
begvurot shmonim', a very simple "seventy years, and with great
strength, eighty". The translator decided to put it in fancy words, and
apparently used this phrase in other places too.

The number 70 does in fact appear in many contexts, what is strange
about that? The descendants of Yaakov, the age of David, etc.  But this
psalm specifically *does* relate to lifespan, 'the years of his life
are...', so it is obviously a 'common notion'.

Shimon Lebowitz                           mailto:<shimonl@...>
Jerusalem, Israel         PGP: members.xoom.com/shimonl/pubkey.htm


From: Dan Young <danyoung@...>
Subject: Tikkyn layl Shavu'ot and Sefer HaMitzvot?

I wonder whether anyone can recommend to me good English translations of
these books:

Tikkun layl Shavu'ot is a compilation of the Shavu'ot parsha (I think),
Mshnah, Gemara and Zohar especially for study on Shavu'ot.  Is there an
English translation with good commentaries?

Also -- is there a good English translation of Sefer HaMitzvot that
includes later poskim and commentary?  I am interested in reading
Rambam's text, the basis for each Mitzvah in Torah or Gemara, and also
in the contemporary implementation, since many pertain only to the
temple service, and others are conditional (if you are a king, if you
are a Nazir, etc).  I'm also interested in which ones are not kept any
longer (tumah due to leprosy, for instance) and why and when the poskim
ruled so, and how the temple-service mitzvot have been adapted for home
and shul service (washing hands, salting challah, etc).

I'd be grateful for any suggestions.

Dan Young


From: Nina Butler <nbutler@...>
Date: Fri, 14 Apr 2000 09:31:12 -0400
Subject: RE: Women and Curriculum

WOMEN AND CURRICULUM - Before we can even open the curriculum
discussion, we need to have TEACHERS equipped to teach that curriculum.
Although males can continue teaching women, our female students would
benefit considerably from female teacher/role models.  Women need
opportunities to learn on the highest levels... and then be encouraged
to consider residential choices other than New York and Israel!

Nina Butler


End of Volume 32 Issue 73