Volume 33 Number 02
                 Produced: Tue Jul 25  5:51:34 US/Eastern 2000

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

         [Eli Turkel]
Financial Reasons for Leaving the Land
         [David Curwin]
Kiddush and Women
         [Shlomo Argamon]
Kosher in Israel - Outside of Jerusalem
         [Aharon Fischman]
The MJ Answer to the "ending in 50" problem
         [Chaim Manaster]
Nachem Prayer -  Addenda
         [Yael Levine Katz]
Oil lights for Shabbat
         [Batya Medad]
Pesach in the winter - was 'Molad'
         [Daniel M Wells]
Ratners Fans
         [Jonathan Shaffer]
Signing Kilometer Forms may be permissable
         [Russell Hendel]
Tisha Baav movie showings
         [Chaim Shapiro]
         [Ari Kahn]


From: Eli Turkel <turkel@...>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 19:02:11 +0300 (IDT)
Subject: Aliyah

Meshe Feldman asks
> Does this mean that we should treat Aliyah like any other Mitzvat Aseh and
> expend no more than one-fifth (chomesh) of our assets performing the
> mitzvah?
> If yes, this leads to the following questions: (1) Does the cost of a
> "lift" (i.e., new appliances, furniture, etc. bought in order to
> maximize the one-time benefits given to Olim to bring these appliances,
> etc.) car, and costs incurred count towards the one-fifth, since if you
> were not making Aliyah you would not incur these expenditures in order
> to maintain your standard of living that you enjoy in Chutz Laaretz?
> (2) Does the fact that you will earn less in Israel (m'nee'at re'vach)
> count towards the one-fifth?  (Of course, in certain fields such as
> computers, after you factor in the savings in the education of your
> children, this is not the case.)
> Can anyone suggest analogies to other mitzvot with regard to the issue of
> one-fifth?

Not being a posek I would guess that only actual expenses count towards
the one-fifth not "not making what one could have".  This is different
than finding an object where one does not have to give up making a nice
salary in order to return an object with a small value. This is a strict
money issue. I dont give up $1000 to save someone else $50.

Kol Tuv,
Eli Turkel


From: David Curwin <curwin@...>
Date: Mon, 17 Jul 2000 17:15:49 -0700
Subject: Financial Reasons for Leaving the Land

Moshe Feldman <MFeldman@...>
> Does this mean that we should treat Aliyah like any other Mitzvat Aseh and
> expend no more than one-fifth (chomesh) of our assets performing the
> mitzvah?

I'm unfamiliar with this rule -- what is the source? In any case, there
certainly are positive mitzvot that don't have that restriction --
having children, for example.  And just as children are our future,
settling the land of Israel is "equal to all the mitzvot in the Torah".

However, in respond to Moshe's question, and to Russell's suggestion
that one is not required to lower his standard of living in order to
make aliya, it is important to note that there already exist halachic
definitions of how much one is obligated to spend/lose in order to live
in the Land:

"It's always forbidden to leave Eretz Yisroel for the Diaspora, save to
study Torah, to take a wife, and rescuing someone from the heathen,
after which he must return. Likewise, he may visit the Diaspora for
business. But it's forbidden to RESIDE outside the land, unless there's
a severe famine, in which a dinar's worth of wheat has jumped to 2
dinars. When does this apply?-- when money is to be had, but produce is
dear. However, if produce is cheap, but money is not to be had, and
there's no way of earning one's bread and there's not a pruta in the
purse, he may go wherever he may earn a livelihood. Tho in such a case,
it's permitted to leave the Holy Land, it savours of no piety-- for
behold Machlon and Kilion, who were leaders of their age and who left
Israel out of great distress, rendered themselves liable to destruction
by the Omnipotent." (Rambam Hilchot Melachim 5:9-11)

So we see that under certain extreme cases of inflation (which don't
really exist today) one could leave, it is still much preferable to

David Curwin
Kvutzat Yavne, Israel


From: Shlomo Argamon <argamon@...>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 13:21:18 +0300 (IDT)
Subject: Re: Kiddush and Women

> From: Laurie Cohen <LSCHP@...>
> There are some Chasidim that begin having their daughters light Shabbos
> candles (or one candle) on their 3rd birthday.However, this is not the
> minhag of most Orthodox--women usually begin lighting candles after
> marriage.We started are own "minhag," whereas our daughters received
> their first becher (silver kiddush cup) on their third Pesach.This
> allowed them to more fully participate in the mitzvah of drinking the
> four cups at the Seder, and then they continue to use it each Shabbos.

This is a wonderful "minhag".

> (Note that they do not say their own Kiddush.)

Why not?  Women are me`huyavot in qidush identically to men; in fact, if
a woman doesn't go to schul Friday night, it may be preferable for her
to make qidush than to rely on her husband, who fulfilled his obligation
in davening.  In our house, I make qidush Friday night, and my wife does
so on Shabbat day; when our daughters are old enough, I assume they will
make qidush as well.



From: Aharon Fischman <afischman@...>
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 17:39:08 +0000
Subject: Kosher in Israel - Outside of Jerusalem

For those of you who use the Kosher Restaurant database in the US, I
have found it very helpful when I go away on business trips.  Recently,
I have switched jobs, a job that takes me to Israel once in a while, and
need to work out of corporate headquarters in Herzeliyah.  Would anyone
who comes here more often than I do be able to tell me if the
information in the Kosher database is up to date?  If not, does anyone
know of a similar database in Israel with information on location and

[The kosher restaurant database has not been updated recently, but will
be back in update mode shortly. I had stopped doing it a while ago, when
I ran out of time, there were some other people who took over, who have
since run out of time, and now I will be handing it over to my son to
begin updating. Mod.]

H (201) 833-0801
F (208) 330-1402


From: Chaim Manaster <hankman@...>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 10:08:32 -0400
Subject: The MJ Answer to the "ending in 50" problem

>From Russel Jay Hendel:
> ...
> It seems to me that the same answer (that was given in MJ several years
> ago) would apply to his enlarged question. Here is a brief summary
> Assume the following rule: Round all Biblical numbers to the nearest 100
> UNLESS the number ends in exactly 50. So eg 1234 1289 and 1250 would
> appear as 1200 1300 and 1250 respectively

I appreciate your response, however, your initial assumption that you
seem to take as axiomatic, begs the question. If you can supply a good
reason for your assumption, that you supply by fiat, then you do have a
satisfying answer. For the moment I am as puzzled by the purpose of the
assumption as I was by the original question.

I did get one response that might help somewhat with your assumption
from Chaim Twerski that might help. He wrote: "R. Yaakov Kamenetzky
addresses this problem, and suggests that the army was organized in
groups of 100 so that in order to obtain equal number of troups per
company, the shevatim borrowed from each other to obtain even numbers.
See emes l'yaakov." I do not have a copy of Emes L'Yaakov so I could not
look it up. But to be honest the question still bothers me somewhat.

Kol Tuv

Chaim Manaster


From: Yael Levine Katz <ylkpk@...>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 23:14:48 +0200
Subject: Nachem Prayer -  Addenda

I was able to locate copies of the Rosenfeld Kinot with the alternative
version of Nachem.  It appears in the second edition, published in
1970. According to the Aleph computerized system, it was located only at
the Rothberg International School on Mt.  Scopus.  As it turned out,
there were two copies of this edition, and most interestingly, in one of
them the alternative version of Nachem was crossed out in pen. As
mentioned specifically in the introductory lines to the prayer, it was
Rabbi Rosenfeld himself who composed it.  Contrary to what I had stated
in an earlier posting, this is not the prayer Rav Goren composed.  And,
subsequently, in reference to Kadish's posting, it can be said that the
four items listed are, in actuality, three different versions, and not
two or four.  I can e-mail the Hebrew text to those whose browsers
support Hebrew.

Yael Levine Katz


From: Batya Medad <isrmedia@...>
Date: Fri, 14 Jul 2000 16:54:37 +0300
Subject: Re: Oil lights for Shabbat

> I began putting a layer of water at the bottom of the cup, so
> that the flame goes out when the oil is exhausted, before it has a
> chance to crack the cup.

That's really strange.  We use olive oil in glass cups on Chanukah, and
I stopped putting water on the bottom, because it seemed to cause the
glass to crack.  I presume from the difference in boiling temperatures.
(Scientists on list are kindly requested not to make fun of my
non-technical terminology, though you can tell me if my guess makes

Shabbat Shalom, Batya


From: Daniel M Wells <wells@...>
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 19:39:51 +0300 (IDT)
Subject: Pesach in the winter - was 'Molad'

> From: David Charlap <shamino@...>
> Our rabbis are not stupid.

Quite so but unless a Beth Din greater in ability then our current batei
din, they will have no authority to change.

> this drift is no secret. When the calendar drifts far enough to be a
> full month off (in about 4500 years), I have no doubt that the rabbis
> of the day will do something to resynchronize the calendar.My guess is
> that a regularly-scheduled Adar-II will be skipped.

No way - thats the month of Purim that is slated to remain for all time.
Adar I is the additional month.

> > Bear in mind also that until the coming of the Mashiach, the *only*
> > valid determination of festival occurrence is the lunar calculation
> > of R.Gamliel. And thus even if Pesach would eventually occur in
> > winter, we would celebrate in winter as a rabbinical command to
> > follow our sages.

> If (God forbid) Moshiach doesn't come by then,

Thats sounds a little apikorsus. Since its the Almighty who will send
the Moshiach, how can we say 'G-d forbid' if thats the Almighty's wish.

> I have no doubt 

If in the last 2500 years the rabbi's have not made any radical changes
to halacha or Jewish jurisprudence what makes you decide to 'not' doubt. 

> that the rabbis of that day will arrive at a more reasonable solution
> than to celebrate Pesach in winter.

Why, or rather I should say 'what' makes Pesach more 'reasonable' in the
summer or fall, than say in the winter? Perhaps the technicality that it
should fall before the vernal equinox? Surely the temperature outside or
the secular month has little relevance to Pesach

> Especially when we already have a mechanism in place for
> re-synchronizing the calendar (Adar-II).

We? Only a competent (ie of greater stature) Sanhedrin/Beth Din can
re-synch the calendar and Adar-I at that.



From: Jonathan Shaffer <Jshaffer@...>
Date: Tue, 18 Jul 2000 09:43:09 -0400
Subject: Ratners Fans

For fans of Ratners, I received the following from Star K's e mail kashrut


    RATNERS DAIRY RESTAURANT (138 Delancey St., NY) has closed and will 
reopen as a non-kosher restaurant.  RATNERS FROZEN FOODS are produced at a 
separate factory and will remain kosher certified by the Kof-K.


From: Russell Hendel <rhendel@...>
Date: Sun, 9 Jul 2000 23:35:51 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Signing Kilometer Forms may be permissable

Asher Goldstein in Volume 32 number 63 asks about the legitimacy
of signing kilometer forms to obtain extra salary. He points out
that the dilemna is that "no one actually travels that much" but
"everyone knows this and this is the only way of getting the extra

The following citation from Rambam, Laws of Acquisition and Gift 11:21
**may** be revelant
A person on a death bed who ordered 'Give $400 to my daughter for
her dowry' if the custom of the place is to exaggerate double then
we only give $200..for we interpret his words 'Give what is valued
in dowrys as $200'

Similarly the following law may be relevant Sales: 28:14
A person who says 'I sell to you John's 5 acre field'--the sale
is valid EVEN if the field has under a half an acre--BECAUSE
he simply used it as a name---John's 5 acre field, and didn't
commit himself to selling 5 acres

All I am saying is that these laws allow one to rely on normal usage
of terms in sales. So it is possible that if you state you rode so
many hours and it is the accepted custom for people to get that
much of an increase in salary it is permissable since 'everyone knows
this' and all you are doing is claiming the money that belongs to you

Russell Jay Hendel;Phd ASA
Moderator Rashi is Simple
http://www.RashiYomi.Com/----------NEW AND IMPROVED


From: Chaim Shapiro <Dagoobster@...>
Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2000 16:14:31 EDT
Subject: Tisha Baav movie showings

It has become popular in many places to show a sad documentary film on
Tisha Baav.  Not a bad idea in principle.  It certainly has the
potential to put people in the mood for that somber day.  But, I have to
wonder if the idea is working.  The several showings I have gone to,
have turned into social scenes with quite a bit of flirting.  Ask most
singles why they are going to the showing.  If they are honest, I think
many would be surprised by the answers.  For many it is a way to kill
time (and then a form of entertainment?) at best, and a hot social scene
at worst.  Is this what we want kids doing on Tisha Baav?

Chaim Shapiro


From: Ari Kahn <kahnar@...>
Date: Sun, 16 Jul 2000 18:46:52 +0300
Subject: Re: Uganda

"The Uganda of 1903 was not the same geographical area as Uganda today
and I believe is located in the current state of Nigeria."

A few years ago I was on a lecture tour in Nairobi Kenya. There is a
small Jewish community there, mostly consisting of Israelis who went for
various work related tasks (mainly via Soleh Boneh). While I was there I
was told that what became Nairobi was in fact the area which was to
become "Israel". I met some people who told me that when the "Uganda"
plan was mentioned their parents or grandparents got on the next boat
and started buying land anticipating the great "Aliya" which of course
never happened.

Ari Kahn


End of Volume 33 Issue 2