Volume 34 Number 77
                 Produced: Mon Jun 11  6:06:10 US/Eastern 2001

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Another Correction/Qamats qatan
         [P.V. Viswanath]
Cholov Yisroel milk
Eretz Tzvi
         [Netanel Livni]
Galicianer Hebrew
         [Meir Shinnar]
Hilchos Kiruv Rechokim
         [Ben Katz]
Luach publishers
         [Shlomo B Abeles]
Male headcovering
         [Ira L. Jacobson]
Minchas Eluzer and the Reasons for Anti-Zionism
         [Alan Rubin]
Placing the talis over one's head
         [Saul Davis]
Repetition of Words in Prayer
         [Ira L. Jacobson]
Repetitions during Prayer
         [Yisrael Medad]
Talis over your head
         [Chaim Shapiro]
Washing Dishes on Shabbos
         [David Ziants]


From: P.V. Viswanath <pviswanath@...>
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 13:39:17 -0400
Subject: Another Correction/Qamats qatan

At 12:18 PM 6/8/2001 +0000, Zev Sero <Zev@...> wrote:

>Meylekh Viswanath <pviswanath@...> wrote:
> > weekday kedusha, when a person says uve-divrei kadshekho kosuv
> > leemor, instead of uve-divrei kodshekho kosuv leemor. I have not
> > been able to confirm this for sure, but it seems to me that this
> > changes the meaning from "and it is written in your holy words,"
> > to "and in the words of your kadesh (male temple prostitute), it
> > is written."
>But the word for `male whore' is `qodeish' (kometz kuf, tzeire
>dalet, shin), not `qadeish' (Devorim 23:18).

I am aware that the nominative form is 'qodeish.'  What about the form,
"your qodeish," however?  Since there is a change of stress, the vowel
becomes shorter, and (I imagined) becomes a patakh.

Ira L. Jacobson <laser@...> said:

> >  However, it seems to me that this becomes a bit more problematic in the
> >weekday kedusha, when a person says uve-divrei kadshekho kosuv leemor,
> >instead of uve-divrei kodshekho kosuv leemor.
>          I am puzzled as to why this is problematic only in the
>*weekday* qedusha.  It is present on weekdays, sabbath-days, holidays,
>atonement days, new-moon days and evey other day that i can think of.

You're right.  I only provided one of the different locations where the
word occurs.

>          I would also be disturbed by hearing leemor instead of lemor
>or leimor.

Thanks for pointing that out.  I assumed (without looking it up) that it
was segol, khataf segol or segol, shva (like needar).

I would still like to find out what a noun with the same mishqal as
qadeish, i.e. patakh, tseyre, would be inflected when a possessive
suffix is added.



From: Mordechai <Phyllostac@...>
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 10:33:33 EDT
Subject: Cholov Yisroel milk

In response to the recent discussion re cholov Yisroel milk quality -
esp.  allegations of quicker spoilage as opposed to other milk -

Recently (within the past few months) New York State Asemblyman Dov
Hikind of Brooklyn raised this issue on his Motzei Shabbos radio show.

He contacted representatives of the two major (only?) cholov Yisroel
milk companies serving his district.

I believe he claimed that the problem was mostly / only with one of the
companies and may have been from improper dating. He got one company to
offer something like money back plus a free quart to anyone whose milk
spoils (early?). For more info, I guess you can call his district office
in Brooklyn, NY.

In terms of my personal experience, I have experienced the problem, but
I believe the situation may have improved lately - at least somewhat.

re the quality of Cholov Yisroel milk - I think it is appropriate to
point out here, with pride, that one of the Cholov Yisroel companies
(New Square) is one of the rare / only companies AFAIK (esp. in the
Northeast) whose milk is BST free (BST is a bovine growth hormone which
cows are injected with, about which questions have been raised).

[Maybe one of few, but not only, Farmland Dairies, which is one of the
major suppliers in my area also does not use any rBST (I'm not a boki
enough to know if there is any major difference between rBST and
BST). Mod.]

Last summer, I briefly visited a large cholov Yisroel supplier farm in
upstate NY. Unfortunately, I had to leave early. I hope one day to go
back to one or more of such farms to observe the proceedings / setup, if
possible.  Anyone else interested in such a trip?



From: Netanel Livni <n_livni@...>
Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2001 09:21:55 -0700
Subject: Eretz Tzvi

I am working on a translation of a hebrew text and I am stumped as to
how to translate the term "Eretz Tzvi."

Any suggestions?

Netanel Livni


From: Meir Shinnar <Chidekel@...>
Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2001 17:24:19 EDT
Subject: Re: Galicianer Hebrew

With regard to the debate over Galicianer baale kria, in Agnon's
Hachnasat Kalla, there is a story about a ba'al kore who was very
medakdek, and people would go to him to hear his pronounciation of an
aleph with a dagesh.(something that not every ba'al kore knew.).  While
this is hardly ironclad proof, Agnon knew Galicia, and Hachnasat Kalla,
even though fiction, is perhaps the best portrayal of Galicia. This
suggests that in Galicia there may have been a tradition of the ba'al
koreh being mdakdek, even if this did not filter down to every shul and
every ba'al koreh (and may therefore, as a specialized knowledge, not
survived the shoah and transplantation to America).  We know of other
communities where certain specialized pronounciations and distinctions
survived among some, even though the general community didn't keep them
I vaguely remember that in Yosef Ometz (17th century Frankfurt) he
complains about the community changing pronounciation (? of a gimmel

Meir Shinnar


From: Ben Katz <bkatz@...>
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 14:33:15 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Hilchos Kiruv Rechokim

>From: Andrew Klafter <andrew.klafter@...>
>according to their [i.e. the Gentiles'] erroneous beliefs.  In the same
>manner as we have just explained [shall we consider] those who cling to
>the ways of their erroneous Karaite parents.  Therefore it is proper to
>direct them [the Karaites] to return in repentance [to Orthodox Rabbinic
>Judaism] and to draw them with peaceful words until they return to
>complete strength of the Torah."

       Just one slightly picayune comment re the otherwise well-written
last post.  Inserting the word "Orthodox" before "Rabbinic" in reference to
the Rambam is anacronistic at best.  (It would be like calling the Rambam a
Democrat or a Republican, terms which came into existence hundreds of years
after his time.)  Rabbinic would have been sufficient.
        The reason I have a "thing" about this (aside from my sense of
history) is that while one can successfully argue that Orthodoxy today is
the best representation of Rabbinic Judaism among all of Judaisms different
branches, it is more restrictive than it was in Rambam's day.  One just has
to examine contemporary Torah commentaries (eg Rashbam, Ibn Ezra, Ralbag) to
see what I mean.

Ben Z. Katz, M.D.
Children's Memorial Hospital, Division of Infectious Diseases
2300 Children's Plaza, Box # 20, Chicago, IL 60614
Ph. 773-880-4187, Fax 773-880-8226


From: Shlomo B Abeles <sba@...>
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 15:36:48 +1000
Subject: Luach publishers

Our local school has for about 40 years published a small pocket
luach/business directory to help with fundraising.  Until now it has
been set up here. But they have been told that these are readily
available overseas - without the need to set up here.

They are seeking a pocket sized luach/diary - week to a page (with or
 without our local zmanim) - for the coming year 5762.

Can anyone get me details of publishers in either the US or Israel?

Please reply off-list. Thanks for your help.

Shlomo B Abeles


From: Ira L. Jacobson <laser@...>
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 22:50:39 +0300
Subject: Re: Male headcovering

<Joelirich@...> wrote in  mail-jewish Vol. 34 #76 Digest:

>I did a Tikkun Leil Shavuot shiur on this topic

Please explain.  I always understood Tiqqun Leil Shavu`ot to be a text that 
is recited on Shavu`ot night.  How does you *do* one of these?

[Many/most shuls today instead of having people read/study the text
known as "Tiqqun Leil Shavu`ot" run a series of shiurim on assorted
topics, and that set of shiurim make up the Shavu`ot night activity. In
some shuls it will be called the "Tiqqun Leil Shavu`ot". Mod. ]



From: Alan Rubin <arubin@...>
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 21:46 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Re: Minchas Eluzer and the Reasons for Anti-Zionism

Paul, Judy or Miriam Shaviv say

> The issue of pre-empting the Messiah and of the
> 'Three vows' really only emerged as a major anti-Zionist theme as late
> as the 1950's, with the publication of the late Satmarer Rebbe's sefer
> 'Vayoel Moshe'. {And before other contributors start sending
> anti-Messianic quotes from early anti-Zionist Rebbes and Rabbis, they
> should check their sources, as many of these quotes originate in a work
> called 'Dovev Sifsei Yeshenim', the contents of which have been clearly
> shown to have been forged in Brooklyn in the mid-1950's!]

I have a book, 'Messianism, Zionism and Jewish Religious Radicalism' by
Aviezer Ravitsky chairman of the Department of Jewish Thought at Hebrew
University. He clearly attributes much of the Haredi critique of Zionism
including the 'Three vows' to Rabbi Shalom Dov Baer Schneerson, the
Maharshab, the 5th Lubavitcher Rebbe. I do not have the primary sources
but the book contains full references.

However, Ravitsky also writes.

'Of course we must not unduly exaggerate the historical significance of
these "oaths." and certainly not their halachic status; they clearly
never enjoyed the crucial standing with which they were imbued in the
aftermath of the Holocaust by the radical opponents of Zionism.'

Alan Rubin


From: Saul Davis <sdavis@...>
Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2001 22:36:26 +0300
Subject: Placing the talis over one's head

Gershon Dubin wrote: "Today's daf yomi describes Rav Hamnuna as not
having put on a "sudar" (turban?) over his head, and he gave the reason
as not being married."

Forumists can find this at Qidushin 29b near the end of the daf. See the
last Rashi on the amud.



From: Ira L. Jacobson <laser@...>
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 22:48:07 +0300
Subject: Re: Repetition of Words in Prayer

Ben Z. Katz, M.D. wrote in mail-jewish Vol. 34 #76 Digest about the 
prohibition of Modim modim and Shema` shema:

>It would seem to me that this is less of an issue now that
>Zoroastrianism is not a major competitor with Judaism as it was in

You could say similar things about two days of yomtov, for example, now
that we have a fixed and predictable calendar.  Nevertheless, we are
required to maintain the halakha.

BTW, the conductor of the Israel Philharmonic happens to be a

                         Ira L. Jacobson


From: Yisrael Medad <ybmedad@...>
Subject: Repetitions during Prayer

Although I didn't follow this discussion closely, (being an admirer of
good Chazanut), may I ask if there is any source delineates between
repetition of words of the Amidah and everything else?  I would presume
that repetition during Hallel or the Brich Shemay or other elements of
the Tefilla would logically be acceptable

Yisrael Medad

From: Chaim Shapiro <Dagoobster@...>
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 00:31:17 EDT
Subject: Talis over your head

Dov replied,  

      The Mishna Brura in the Laws of Tsitsis writes that for an
      unmarried person to put a tallis over his head falls under the
      category of "Mechezi K'Yuhara" - appears religiously
      haughty. Although others SHOULD cover their head with a Tallis,
      certainly from "Barchu" onward during davening.

Thanks for the reply.  But this only takes the question to the next
step.  What is haughty about placing the talis over one's head?  And why
is there a distinction between married and unmarried men?



From: David Ziants <dziants@...>
Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 22:06:28 +0300
Subject: Re: Washing Dishes on Shabbos

> > ..... Can a countertop be "scoured"?
> ....  Plastic wirey scrubber, no sponge.

When I was a teenager and was visiting houses in north-west London for
Shabbat (approx. 25 years ago), was told of a p'sak that a synthetic
sponge was OK l'chatchilla (on the outset) even though it looked very
similar to a natural fabric one.

The p'sak was from a Rav of a large "Lithuanian style" congregation -
certainly not the type of congregation for which leniency is needed
because following Torah is not a natural course of life.  Many of his
congregation followed this ruling.

I also took this ruling on myself and have continued to follow it, even
though I have not heard it from any one else over the years.  I have
also been questioned on the authority of this when people saw me wash up
this way.

I understand that the av-melacha (basic shabbat labour) with using a
sponge is s'chita (wringing). Here since the sponge is synthetic, it
would only be d'rabannan (Rabbinic). In our case we also do not have the
intention to launder the sponge (although a clean sponge makes the
washing up easier) - but to wash the dishes.  I guess this is "p'sik
raisha d'nicha lai" (an unavoidable indirect action that is beneficial),
which is only allowed for d'rabannan acts.

Could this be the basis of the above p'sak, and if so, why do not more
people rely on it?

If I am mistaken here in what I state, and this is not the basis of the
p'sak, what would the basis be?

David Ziants
Ma'aleh Adumim, Israel


End of Volume 34 Issue 77