Volume 34 Number 78
                 Produced: Fri Jun 15  6:28:52 US/Eastern 2001

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Cholov Yisroel Milk
         [Rabbi Yisroel Finman]
First mention of North America?
         [Paul, Judy or Miriam Shaviv]
         [Barak Greenfield]
Hilchos Kiruv Rechokim
         [Mike Gerver]
Ice makers on Shabbat
         [Sherman Marcus]
Pause in HaShem Oz  L'Amo Yiten
         [Andrew Klafter]
Repetition of Words in Prayer (3)
         [Haim Snyder, Sid Gordon, Mark Steiner]
Spoiled Cholov Yisroel
         [Andrew Klafter]
Torah & Sefer Yehoshua
         [Ben Katz]
Request: Gateshead kehilla require frum dentist
         [Simon Brooke]


From: Rabbi Yisroel Finman <NISHMAT@...>
Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2001 08:27:26 EDT
Subject: Cholov Yisroel Milk

I worked for a number of years in the cholov yisroel industry, from farm
to factory to wholesale disrtibution to retail.  All milk sold
commercially in the United States is subjected to rigorous USDA
inspections. These inspection regulations were formulated back in the
days when tuberculosous from improperly processed milk was a serious
problem.  Federal law prohibits housing milking animals with swine or

Every farmer's milk is tested, batch by batch, for the inclusion of
foreign matter, ie, medications, blood, water and milk from non
acceptable animals. In additional, all commercially produced milk in
this country is once again tested during the bottling process to once
again insure the total absence of foriegn matter.  All milk is handled
by both farmers and processors in compliance with the USDA
procedures. Failure to do so results in hefty fines which could force a
farmer or processor out of business.

The spoilage factor comes into play from two sources. Firstly, cholov
yisroel companies routinely deliver milk through the night. The milk is
left in unrefrigerated areas, such as the hallways of yeshivas or behind
the stores' rolldown gates. Secondly, many kosher retailers have
inadequate refrigeration sysytems.  Each hour that milk is left at room
temperature will detract one day from its' shelf life.

Rabbi Yisroel Finman
Chai Kosher Consultations


From: Paul, Judy or Miriam Shaviv <shaviv@...>
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 18:03:28 -0400
Subject: First mention of North America?

A question recently asked: Where / when is the first mention of North
America in a rabbinic 'sefer' ? Does anyone know??


From: Barak Greenfield <DocBJG@...>
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 05:50:08 -0400
Subject: RE: Hechsherim

Nadine Bonner <nfbonner@...> writes:

> Barak Greenberg writes

> <Most people would become quite interested in the details if they found
> out that hechsher companies were adopting chumros that prevent them from
> eating various foods. >
> Exactly what foods are people deprived of eating?

Everything we've always talked about on this list: canned peas without a
hechsher, bitul b'shishim, whisky aged in sherry casks, dairy equipment,
the major hechsher companies refusing to acknowledge the minor ones (who
can forget the OU not permitting Coca-Cola to be served in restaurants
because it was certified by the Triangle-K?), etc. etc.

> I really fail to to see a conspiracy on the part of the various hashgoha
> organizations.

I don't think it's a conspiracy per se, either.

> There are so many of them, anyway, with such different
> standards, it shouldn't be hard to find one that meets your level of
> kashrut, whatever that may be.

There are indeed many hechsher companies, but the vast majority of
products are certified by a handful, and it is this handful that is
adopting chumrah after chumrah.

> I really don't want to return to the days when you had to trust the list
> of ingredients on every item.

Exactly, but that is what the hechsher companies are forcing us to
do. When they refuse to tell us that something is merely made on dairy
equipment, for example, and not actually dairy, we have to return to the
days of reading the ingredients to know if we can eat it after a meat
meal. Likewise with regard to the other chumros. By being overly strict,
they are forcing us to use less reliable methods of ascertaining the
status of an item.

> And yes, a products can "taste like real
> butter" and be pareve if the taste is all chemical. Just as the
> "Canadian bacon" my husband likes is a 100 percent soy product and
> certified by the OK.

What does this have to do with the chumros of hechsher companies?



From: Mike Gerver <MJGerver@...>
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 17:26:23 EDT
Subject: Hilchos Kiruv Rechokim

Andrew Klafter, in v34n73, did a beautiful job dealing with most of the
points that bothered me in A. Seinfeld's posting on this topic in
v34n66, but I would like to expand on the idea that a Jew brought up in
a non-observant home is to be considered an "oaness," one who is
violating the Torah because he is forced to do so, since he does not
know that what he is doing is wrong.

 In my experience, Jews with non-Orthodox backgrounds, but with some
knowledge of Torah, often are literally in the category of "oaness" with
respect to mitzvot like kashrut, or Shabbat, or not intermarrying.  They
may very well believe that Jews ought to observe these things, but they
are personally prevented from doing so for practical reasons, often
involving social or economic pressures.  I am not talking about
rationalizations or excuses, but real and compelling reasons.  Someone
in that position needs sympathy and understanding, not rebuke or

The fact is that Orthodox Jews often find themselves in a similar
position, not with respect to kashrut, Shabbat, or intermarriage, but
with respect to other mitzvot. For example, a few years ago, Micha
Berger posted something here about the difficulty of finding Jewish
families willing to adopt Jewish children with severe handicaps, with
the result that they are often adopted by Christian families who want to
bring them up as Christians.  Does anyone think it is not a mitzvah to
adopt such a child?  Then why aren't you doing it?  Or, if you live
outside of Israel and believe that it is a mitzvah to live in Israel,
why don't you make aliyah?  Or, why don't you spend more time learning?

Think about how you would answer these questions-- it might give you a
greater understanding for Jews who "eat shrimp or drive on Shabbat."
They are not necessarily doing it for ideological reasons, or out of

Mike Gerver
Raanana, Israel


From: Sherman Marcus <shermanm@...>
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 23:30:23 +0300
Subject: Ice makers on Shabbat

    What are the halachic implications of using an ice maker on shabbat?
Many side-by-side refrigerators have a section on the outside of the
freezer door that can provide cold water and/or ice.  Are there models
that operate mechanically which might facilitate their use on shabbat?
If there IS a problem, or if the operation is electronic, is it
possible/permissible to retrieve the ice manually from inside the


From: Andrew Klafter <andrew.klafter@...>
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 23:22:43 -0400
Subject: Pause in HaShem Oz  L'Amo Yiten

> From: Ira L. Jacobson <laser@...>
> Russell Hendel <rhendel@...> wrote in mail-jewish Vol. 34
> >My favorite davening example is Ps29:11 which SHOULD be translated:
> >God: He will give strength to his nation:
> >God: He will bless his nation with peace
> >
> >(The point is that translating "God will bless...." is incorrect)

>          And I find it difficult to understand how Russel differentiates
> between the meanings of "G-d will . . . " and "G-d: He will . . ."  In
> a grammar class, WADR, I suspect that the teacher would correct the former
> to make it into the latter.
>          Or am I missing something?

Yes, you are missing something. 

It's the difference between these sentences:
(1) RUSSEL! He's a good guy! vs. (2) Russel is a good guy.

[Since I know Russel very well, I can tetify that both (1) and (2) are
correct, but (1) is more appropriate].

The first sentence is much more dramatic.  It is actually an exclamation
followed by a complete sentence.



From: Haim Snyder <Haim.Snyder@...>
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 15:38:10 +0300
Subject: Re: Repetition of Words in Prayer

Mark Steiner makes the following statement:
<I believe it is standard practice in yeshivot such as
Ponevez (where I heard this with my own ears, so you can believe this)
that words in the silent shmoeh esreh are repeated, if the worshiper
feels that he has not said them with sufficient devotion.  This
particularly in the first benediction (avot) because the ruling is that
one must repeat the entire shomeh esreh if one fails to recite the first
benediction with devotion/intention [kavvanah].>

I think that the discussion was primarily concerned with repetitions by
the shaliah tzibur.  The comparison made here is like comparing apples
to oranges.  When words are repeated in order to use a certain melody,
this is not on the same level as someone who repeats words because he
didn't pronounce them properly (either because of intent or because of
an error).

It is my personal feeling that there are enough tunes which are known to
the communities and/or which are pleasing to the ear which do not call
for repetition so that any hazan who feels he MUST repeat words is
showing his musical ignorance or laziness.

My personal pet peeve is the tune in the Kedusha of musaf on Shabbat/Yom
Tov for "k'vodo ma'ale olam" which calls for three repetitions of that
phrase, each having 2 repetitions of the word ma'ale.

Haim Shalom Snyder
Kfar Ganim, Israel

From: Sid Gordon <sid.gordon@...>
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 00:20:10 +0200
Subject: Re: Repetition of Words in Prayer

A little reality check here.  How many of the readers of this list, when
they see the chazan wrapped in his talit standing in front of the open
aron kodesh, soon to be holding the Sefer Torah close to his heart and
intoning Shema Yisrael, declaring the Oneness of G-d, and they hear him
say "Baye, baye ana rachetz" suspect that he is secretly a Zoroastrian,
praying to a dual-deity?  As the chevre say, give me a break.

I'm not suggesting there's no validity to the view which opposes
repetition.  But I expect a little respect for the traditions
of those who see it as enhancing, in some cases, the beauty of the

From: Mark Steiner <marksa@...>
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 15:44:24 +0300
Subject: Re: Repetition of Words in Prayer

Yisrael Dubitsky writes concerning Rav J. B. Soloveitchik's views on
As for a written source, the Rav's own handwritten (brief!) response
concerning this issue may be seen in the *Cantorial Council of America
Bulletin* 4 (1965) [under the masthead IIRC].

    Yisrael, could you give us an account of this handwritten responsum?
I'm not sure I can get this source here easily ("here" meaning the Holy


From: Andrew Klafter <andrew.klafter@...>
Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2001 23:23:00 -0400
Subject: Spoiled Cholov Yisroel

> From: Joseph Mosseri <JMosseri@...>
> I agree whole heartedly with the anonymous poster who complained about
> the quality and freshness of the Halab Yisrael milk as compared with
> regular milk.
> Regular milk stays fresher longer. The Halab Yisrael milk always spoils
> before the date on the package.

Ok, first of all, if you are machmir to drink milk which has been
supervised directly by Jews and are not relying on the FDA hashgacha, is
is socially incongruent for you to write Halab Yisrael.  You will fit in
much better if you write Cholov Yisroel.  (Yisroyel is also acceptable).

But more on the topic of your posting--we find that Pride of the Farm
does not go bad as quickly as does New Square.  We are having major
problems with our New Square going bad quickly or even arriving spoiled.
We purchased a big upright freezer for meat and Cholov Yisroel milk, and
my wife has it down to a science in terms of thawing out the next bottle
for the kids at the right time.  I agree that it is a big problem.



From: Ben Katz <bkatz@...>
Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2001 16:56:34 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Torah & Sefer Yehoshua

>From: Shalom Carmy <carmy@...>
>> to support one view or another.  If you approach data already knowing
>> what the answer is, there is no need to examine the data.  And it is not
>> the Torah's view of anything that is challenged by archeological
>> findings -- it is more the description of the conquest as presented in
>> Joshua.
>1. I trust that the last sentence is not a reiteration of the position
>that used to be professed at JTS and elsewhere that one is only required
>to accept the Humash (or at least pretend to) but not Neviim.

        My point was that there is much MORE in Yehoshua that is
problemmatic to archeologists than in the Torah itself.  The questioner
had asked about a book of archeology that conformed to the Torah's view
of things (to paraphrase; I don't remember the exact wording of the

>2. Even if one wishes to adopt this odd theology, the description of Am
>Yisrael in Humash, poised to enter Eretz Yisrael en masse, contains most
>of the controversial ingredients that bother archaeologists. So throwing
>Sefer Yehoshua to the wolves of skepticism doesn't save the Humash from
>the same fate.

       See my comment above.  I was not expressing any theology at all,
odd or otherwise.  I assume Dr. Carmy's reference to an odd theology was
that of accepting the Chumash and not the Nach.  My comment had more to
do with approaching data with an open mind.

shabat shalom.

Ben Z. Katz, M.D.
Children's Memorial Hospital, Division of Infectious Diseases
2300 Children's Plaza, Box # 20, Chicago, IL 60614
Ph. 773-880-4187, Fax 773-880-8226


From: Simon Brooke <Sbrooke@...>
Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2001 12:07:50 +0300
Subject: Request: Gateshead kehilla require frum dentist

Gateshead kehilla (England) require a frum dentist to take over an
existing dental practice including all equipment and office. There is
great potential in this vibrant and inspiring community. Replies to

Thanks very much for considering this.

Simon Brooke


End of Volume 34 Issue 78