Volume 35 Number 82
Produced: Tue Jan 1 14:42:04 US/Eastern 2002
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Brooding
[Peter Borregard]
Cleft, cleaved, cloven
[Joshua W. Burton]
Cleft, cleaved, cloven, clarification
[Sarah E. Beck]
Different Tunes for Birchat Kohanim
[Dani Wassner]
Jewish community info?
[Joel Wiesen]
Merachefet al pnei tehom
[Jonathan Baker]
Milton and the Jewish Question:)
[Saul Mashbaum]
Yabia Omer Index (3)
[Prof. Aryeh Frimer, David Yehuda Shabtai, Gil Student]
Yabi'a Omer Index
[Yael Levine Katz]
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From: Peter Borregard <peb@...>
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 05:10:23 -0800
Subject: Brooding
Birds are said to "brood" their nests or eggs, and my trusty old
Webster's 7th Collegiate gives "hover over" as a secondary meaning under
that sense. Perhaps Milton got "hover" from Rashi, and then wanted the
allusions available in the English word "brood." It might be interesting
to look in the OED and see how the usage of "brood" may have changed
over the years.
Peter Borregard
El Cerrito, CA
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From: Joshua W. Burton <jburton@...>
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 11:33:19 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Cleft, cleaved, cloven
Sara Beck writes:
> "Cleft" is used only infrequently in the KJV--once, in Devarim, when
> talking about hooves, and several times in Navi, where KJV uses
> "cleft(s) of the rock(s)" for, e.g., the Heb. "chagvei ha-sela" in
> Jer. 49:16. ("Tsur" also crops up...not "sela" exclusively.)
>
> "Cleft" does not appear in KJV's trans. of the mei meribah incident in
> Num. 20. That (and earlier, Ex. 17) is the obvious (Scriptural) source
> for the _content_ of (Toplady's) "R. of Ages," but the Heb. just doesn't
> allow for a mention of a "cleft" there.
??
What about Shemot 33:22, which is certainly the source that jumps out as
most "obvious" (and most attuned to the sense of the hymn) to my ear?
> Just for fun, imagine Toplady's view of (lehavdil!) Milton's "Instruct
> me, for thou know'st; thou from the first/ Wast present, and, with
> mighty wings outspread,/ Dove-like sat'st brooding on the vast Abyss"
> from the first book of _PL_. I have tried to find Milton's source in
> Tanakh for the activity of "brooding," but I can't. Not the same thing
> as "merachefet." I would be glad of any help.
Since Milton is here invoking the third person of the trinity, I
wouldn't necessarily expect to get much out of Tana"kh. But I'm pretty
sure that in his theology it's the same "ruach" you're alluding to in
B'Reshit 1:2. Note that Milton's dove is brooding in the literal, not
the figurative sense, as the "pregnant" line following makes clear.
Both Wordsworth and Shelley play off this Miltonic image explicitly,
describing their own internal muse (or cloud, in Shelley's case) as
"brooding dove":
The Poet, gentle creature as he is,
Hath, like the Lover, his unruly times;
His fits when he is neither sick nor well,
Though no distress be near him but his own
Unmanageable thoughts: his mind, best pleased
While she as duteous as the mother dove
Sits brooding, lives not always to that end,
But like the innocent bird, hath goadings on
That drive her as in trouble through the groves.
And the crimson pall of eve may fall
From the depth of Heaven above,
With wings folded I rest, on mine aery nest,
As still as a brooding dove.
Milton, thinking of course of the dove in the gospel according to
Matthew, may have come up with the egg-brooding by his ownself. At
least, I can't trace it any farther back.
Joshua
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From: Sarah E. Beck <sbeck@...>
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 14:07:09 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Cleft, cleaved, cloven, clarification
JWB writes: "What about Shemot 33:22, which is certainly the source that
jumps out as most "obvious" (and most attuned to the sense of the hymn) to
my ear?"
You'd think, right? But there--and for "nikrat" generally--KJV uses
"clift." I don't have an OED in front of me, but my learned colleague
here with me thinks that KJV uses "cleft" for cleft and "clift" for a
(possibly miniature) cliff. Who knows?
Sure didn't mean anything polemical with "obvious." I've just heard Jews
and Christians alike sit around and wonder about "cleft for me," and so
I just put down the little we had come up with over the years.
JWB continues: "Since Milton is here invoking the third person of the
trinity, I wouldn't necessarily expect to get much out of Tana"kh."
He surprisingly often (not always, of course) has a source. Just looking
for it, if it can be found.
JWB: "I'm pretty sure that in his theology it's the same "ruach" you're
alluding to in B'Reshit 1:2.
You have hit upon my difficulty. I was too brief in my original
question. Mr. M. is almost certainly referring to the ruach that is
merachefet in 1:2. But what is the ruach doing? "Brooding" captures
"merachefet" just fine. But in that bit of _PL_ (as you add, correctly)
the ikkar is "and mad'st it pregnant." (That is how all of the existing
things proceed from the abyss.)
JWB writes: "Note that Milton's dove is brooding in the literal, not the
figurative sense, as the "pregnant" line following makes clear."
"Brooding," however, does _not_ connote the masculine contribution to
that scenario. In English, it is what the mother bird does. So
"merachefet" makes a fine peg for "brooding," but not for (addrabba)
that aspect of generation traditionally called "active." Where, in
Tanach, does ruach hakodesh act in that capacity? _That_ is what I want
to find. Interesting not only to Miltonists, I hope.
One reply is that there needn't be a peg--he is simply giving a
foretaste of the immaculate conception to come later. Possible, of
course, but (1) he _usually_ has a peg, (2) he talks about ruach
hakodesh that way in several more places (my notes are in another town,
sorry), (3) I wouldn't say (informally) that he has much invested, in PL
at least, in immac. concep., and (4)--I don't mean this cheaply--where
something concerns p'ru ur'vu, he takes it seriously. So I thought I'd
look.
JWB writes: "Both Wordsworth and Shelley play off this Miltonic image
explicitly, describing their own internal muse (or cloud, in Shelley's
case) as "brooding dove.'" Quite true, but they do not invoke the zachar
as he (JM) does.
All my best,
SB
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From: Dani Wassner <dani@...>
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 15:39:54 +0200
Subject: Different Tunes for Birchat Kohanim
While we are on the subject, why is it that here in Israel (and quite
possibly elsewhere) only one tune is ever used for Birkat Cohanim? And
that tune is the standard one for Yamim Noraim. I find it bizarre that
even on a regular weekday, we daven the usual weekday niggun and then
switch to the yamim noraim tune for duchening.
Dani Wassner, Jerusalem
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From: Joel Wiesen <Wiesen@...>
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 08:49:24 -0500
Subject: Re: Jewish community info?
Hi Jonathan,
<< information about shuls, schools, mikvahs, etc. or contact
information for these places?
Info on synagogues is available at:
http://ou.org/network/synagogues/synagogues.cfm
Following the links leads you to the web pages of each shul, which
usually has info on local eruv, mikva, etc.
If you end up compiling this info, pls share it.
Shabbat Shalom,
Joel P. Wiesen, Ph.D., Director - Applied Personnel Research
27 Judith Road; Newton, Massachusetts 02459-1715
(617) 244-8859
mailto:<Wiesen@...>
http://www.personnelselection.com/apr.htm
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From: Jonathan Baker <jjbaker@...>
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 08:47:31 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Merachefet al pnei tehom
From: Sarah E. Beck <sbeck@...>
> A Christian _minister_ would (then and now) be able to come up with the
> references in Navi. But a churchgoer off the road, reasonably
> well-versed but not expert in Bible, might probably think first of the
> (understandably more famous) "O my dove, that art in the clefts of the
> rock," or to us, "yonati be-chagvei ha-sela." (This perspective improves
> the rest of the hymn's "let me hide myself in Thee" immeasurably.)
> Just for fun, imagine Toplady's view of (lehavdil!) Milton's "Instruct
> me, for thou know'st; thou from the first/ Wast present, and, with
> mighty wings outspread,/ Dove-like sat'st brooding on the vast Abyss"
> from the first book of _PL_. I have tried to find Milton's source in
> Tanakh for the activity of "brooding," but I can't. Not the same thing
> as "merachefet." I would be glad of any help.
BDB cites Jerome and the Syriac for "brooding, fertilizing". Remember,
it's not just "contemplating gloomily", but also "guarding one's young."
The Medrash brings just this image (see Ber. Rabbah 2:4 in Mharz"v; also
Yalk. Ber. 1:4 for the parallel version that brings exactly the verse,
Dt. 32:11 - as an eagle yirchaf over its young). R' Yehoshua (?)
describes it as "not just sat there, but fluttered its wings up & down."
That goes with the image in Dt, if an eagle is sitting on the edge of
its nest watching its young, eagles build their nests in high, windy
places, so they would need to flutter now & again to maintain balance.
So too God was watching/contemplating His young, His creation.
This meshes nicely with the work of a friend from high school and
college, Jeff Shoulson '88 (since I see you're at P'ton), that some of
Milton's imagery parallels that in the Midrashim, reflecting ideas that
may have come into Xtian discourse during the Midrashic period. I really
should read his book, which just came out.
- jon baker <jjbaker@...> <http://www.panix.com/~jjbaker> -
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From: Saul Mashbaum <smash52@...>
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 19:08:37 +0200
Subject: Re: Milton and the Jewish Question:)
Sarah E. Beck <sbeck@...>wrote
> Just for fun, imagine Toplady's view of (lehavdil!) Milton's "Instruct
> me, for thou know'st; thou from the first/ Wast present, and, with
> mighty wings outspread,/ Dove-like sat'st brooding on the vast Abyss"
> from the first book of _PL_. I have tried to find Milton's source in
> Tanakh for the activity of "brooding," but I can't. Not the same thing
> as "merachefet." I would be glad of any help.
My survey of English Literarture instructor at YU, Leo Taubes, a
particular expert on Milton, made a fascinating comment on this passage:
Rashi in Beraishit 1,2, comments "The throne of Divine Glory was
standing in space, hovering over the face of the waters by the breath of
the Holy One, blessed be He, and by his command, even as a dove hovers
over its nest." (Silverman translation)
Taubes cited this passage as proof that Milton knew Rashi. The
correspondence certainly is striking, much too close to be merely
accidental. If I remember correctly, Taubes said there were other
passages which support this premise, but did not cite them.
Saul Mashbaum
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From: Prof. Aryeh Frimer <frimea@...>
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 15:43:02 +0200
Subject: Re: Yabia Omer Index
"Volume 9 just came out last month. I should have it in a couple of
days. I'll keep you posted if it includes a new all inclusive index.
Joseph Mosseri"
It does not
Aryeh Frimer
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From: David Yehuda Shabtai <dys6@...>
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 10:09:24 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Yabia Omer Index
Thanks for the information.
I will try to get my hands on one, also if there is one at the end of
the 9th volume please let me know, thanks.
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From: Gil Student <gil_student@...>
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 15:03:20 -0500
Subject: Yabia Omer Index
The "topics" function in Bar Ilan's Responsa CD-Rom (I'm looking at version
8) is essentially an extensive index on Yabia Omer vols. 1-8. It seems to
be indexed mainly to Yabia Omer, and peripherally to Rav Herzog's Heichal
Yitzchak and Rav Meshulam Roth's Kol Mevaser.
Gil Student
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From: Yael Levine Katz <ylkpk@...>
Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2001 00:27:48 +0200
Subject: Yabi'a Omer Index
Yabi'a Omer is included in the Bar Ilan Responsa database. One may,
then, check topics according to keywords. For certain purposes, this
might be more useful than a subject index.
Yael
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End of Volume 35 Issue 82
