Volume 35 Number 83
                 Produced: Tue Jan  1 23:33:54 US/Eastern 2002

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Aveilus and avodah
         [I Kasdan]
The "Body" of G-d
         [Gil Student]
The Body of God- and Time
         [Eli Lansey]
Conditioner & Mikvah (3)
         [Aliza N. Fischman, Susan Shapiro, <rubin20@...>]
         [Michael Feldstein]
         [Carl Singer]
Kitniyot and Rema
         [Gilad J. Gevaryahu]
OVERTAKING BOUNDARIES--does it apply to Jobs
         [Russell Jay Hendel]
Salary Analysis
         [Asher B. Samuels]
Shliach Tzibur and Kaddish
         [Stephen Colman]
Standing for other people's recitation of Kaddish
         [I Kasdan]
Taking over non-Jewish Music
         [Leah S. Gordon]
Wages (2)
         [Joshua W. Burton, Carl Singer]


From: I Kasdan <Ikasdan@...>
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 01:18:39 -0500
Subject: Aveilus and avodah

Both the Ramban (in Toras haAdam) and Rabbeinu B'Chaye (in Kad haKemach)
call avelus a form of "avodah" to HKBH. How/why is aveilus a form of
"avodah?" I would appreciate any sources that elaborate on this concept.
Thanks in advance.


From: Gil Student <gil_student@...>
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 14:57:09 -0500
Subject: The "Body" of G-d

Bill Bernstein wrote:
>But the bothersome part is that the whole field of Jewish philosophy has 
>fallen out of our curriculum. When was the last time anyone learned Ralbag, 
>the sefer Ikkarim of Joseph Albo, or Crescas? When was the last time anyone 
>referred to them? Could you even order these seforim from, say, Eichlers?

I got my [English translation of] Ralbag's Milchemos Hashem vol. 1 as a
bar mitzvah present (a very inappropriate present IMHO).  The Ralbag's
commentary on the Torah has been recently reprinted in a few editions.
One is owned by a shul near me.  I bought my Sefer HaIkkarim and Or
Hashem (by R. Chasdai Crescas) at Eichler's in Flatbush.

If you want a good selection from the various philosophers, try
R. J. David Bleich's With Perfect Faith.  Eichlers.com doesn't seem to
have it but Judaica.com does.  You can also find paraphrases and
critiques of these philosophers (and some others) in Abarbanel's
commentary on the Torah.

Gil Student


From: Eli Lansey <elansey@...>
Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2001 20:32:42 +0200 (IST)
Subject: Re: The Body of God- and Time

Michael Frank wrote:
> there is also no "outside the universe".

Sort of.  There might or might not be.  All we know is that it is not
bound by space/time/matter the way our universe is.  True that there is
nothing (not like in a vacum, but really a true nothingness- no space,
no time, etc.), but one could theorize an outside 'edge' to our universe
and its rules.  When we consider God to be 'above time' we could assume
that he is 'outside' the limits of our universe, however you might view


From: Aliza N. Fischman <fisch.chips@...>
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 18:28:34 -0500
Subject: Conditioner & Mikvah

In my local Mikvah, (in Teaneck, NJ) there is a sign in each preperation
room which reads something like, "Please do not use hair conditioner
before immersion as it pollutes the Mikvah.  Thank you."  My take on
this is that just like it can rinse off in the shower, it can rinse off
as you immerse.  This can leave a fine film, even one which is invisible
at first glance.  The film may then be transfered on to a woman who is
immersing and can become a problematic chatzitza (separation) between
her and the water.

Aliza Fischman

From: <SShap23859@...> (Susan Shapiro)
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 15:18:21 EST
Subject: Re: Conditioner & Mikvah

> See Shulchan Aruch YOREH DEAH 198:17 "tzeva she'tzov'ot hanashim al
> pneihen v'yedeihen v'SEIR RASHAN EINO CHOTZETZ [caps mine]. As the
> SHACH there (s"k 21) writes, "harei hu k'gufo shel seiar".The Be'er
> Heitev there says hair coloring is NOT like ink. If this is the din
> for hair coloring, certainly hair conditioner [which is rinsed off] is
> not only acceptable but probably required since it prevents hair from
> entangling.

Not familiar with sources, but as a Mikvah Lady I know there are two
kinds of hair dye, one which is permanent, and only goes away as the hair
grows, and the other which is washed out after a certain number of
rinses.  I believe the 2nd one is a chatzitzah.

Hair conditioner does not stay on the hair indefinitely, and gets rinsed
out even with one or two washes, therefore, it is not permanent, and it
would make sense that it is a chatzitzah.

Susan Shapiro,
S. Diego.

From: <rubin20@...>
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 20:39:49 -0500
Subject: Re: Conditioner & Mikvah

The logic doesn't flow. The problem of Chatitash is only on something
you object to, such as hair conditioner, but not hair coloring, which
you want.


From: <MIKE38CT@...> (Michael Feldstein)
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 20:15:17 EST
Subject: Intermarriage

Carl Singer asked:
>Explicit or tacit social acceptance is of concern -- would you (silently
>or otherwise) boycott an inter-faith wedding?

<<Yes.  And I have done so on more than one occasion: "actively" not go.
This act of protest on my part, though, did not stop me afterwards from
staying in touch with the people concerned or even from sending them
Jewishly oriented gifts.>>

I take a similar position when invited to an inter-faith wedding: I will
not attend, but I will not refuse to have contact with the couple
because of their decision to intermarry.

What is more problematic for me is being invited to a wedding where one
partner has "converted" to Judaism (even though by the most liberal
Orthodox standards the conversion is not valid) and the wedding is
supposedly completely Jewish.  I haven't fully figured out in my own
mind what I should do in this case.  Fortunately, the problem has
presented itself only once, and i had a handy excuse (besides my being
uncomfortable) as to why I couldn't attend.

Michael Feldstein
Stamford, CT


From: <CARLSINGER@...> (Carl Singer)
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 21:21:55 EST
Subject: Re: Kaddish

      Is there any halachic justification for a yahrtzeit for a parent
      to take precedence over someone in the shloshim for a parent to
      lead the minyan????  Both living in same community and regular
      members of shul???

There is a specific "pecking order" -- I just don't know whether there
are variations specific to given communities / traditions.

Kol Tov

Carl Singer


From: <Gevaryahu@...> (Gilad J. Gevaryahu)
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 15:08:55 EST
Subject: Kitniyot and Rema

Mike Gerver (MJv35n78) says: <<However, maybe the point is that in the
1500s, even as late as the timeof the Rema in the 1600s, the local
customs were still becoming established, >>

Rema lived in the 1500s. EJ 9:1081 suggests 1525 or 1530-1572.

Gilad J. Gevaryahu


From: <rhendel@...> (Russell Jay Hendel)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 08:09:45 -0500 (EST)
Subject: RE: OVERTAKING BOUNDARIES--does it apply to Jobs

Mort Trainer in v35n65 speaks about HASAGAS GEVUL (Overtaking someones
boundaries). I have heard this concept used this way on many
occasions. My question is this: Is this an actual halachic concept?

Here is some background: There is an explicit verse of moving back
someones territorial bounday (Dt19-14). The Rambam, Laws of Robbery,
Chapters 7 and 8 says that this applies to Israeli real estate-- Besides
the prohibitions of robbery and theft there is also a prohibition of
moving boundaries (So an ordinary thief violates 1 law while a
territorial thief violates 2 laws).

The Rambam does not seem to apply this to eg setting up a shiur in town
when someone else has one on the same topic or opening a Kosher pizza
shop when someone else does. (These items may be prohibited but not
because of theft).

So: Is my understanding of the Rambam correct (That there is no
OVERTAKING BOUNDARIES prohibition on business competition).And if so
which Rishonim (Authorities) if any prohibit this and WHAT is the

Russell Jay Hendel; http://www.RashiYomi.Com


From: Asher B. Samuels <absamuels@...>
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 23:31:45 +0200
Subject: Salary Analysis

Here in Jerusalem, I'm paying someone 40 shekel (about $9 at the current
exhange rate) an hour for cleaning.  That works out to 7000 a month if
that were a full-time job, which is just about the average wage (as
reported by the Central Bureau of Statistics).


From: <StephenColman2@...> (Stephen Colman)
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 18:19:46 EST
Subject: Shliach Tzibur and Kaddish

Sefer Gesher Hachaim - Perek 30 para 10 gives the order of preferences.
With regard to Yaarzteit v Shloshim he states that...with regard to the
number of Kaddeishim, the ben Shloshim should have more. Eg, if there
are 3 kaddeishim, he should have 2 and the Yaartzeit should have 1. If
however there is only 1 kaddish, then the Yaartzeit should say it in
preference to the Shloshim, as the Yaartzeit has only this 1 day to say
his kaddish. With regard to Tefilloh: the Shloshim davens up to the end
of Chazoras Hashatz and the Yaartzeit takes over for Ashrei and UvO
Letzion, and they divide up the Kaddeishim following oleinu and Ein
Kelokeinu....See inside for more detail.


From: I Kasdan <Ikasdan@...>
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 17:59:05 -0500
Subject: Standing for other people's recitation of Kaddish

Regarding the comment --

 <<I myself, do not stand while other people are saying Kadish  . . .>>

Carl Singer asked for sources.  

See S'deh Chemed chelek aleph page 413 (maarechet 29) on the bottom of
the page starting with "V'kaasher . . ." where the author relates that
when he moved to "eretz hakedosha" he found great Rabbonim who sat for
Kaddish. [Nonetheless, he goes on to say that he himself maintained his
minhag to stand during Kaddish.]


From: Leah S. Gordon <leah@...>
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2001 08:22:50 -0800
Subject: Taking over non-Jewish Music

In reply to "why can't we take a treif niggun and make it kosher,"
someone wrote, "why can't we take a treif piece of meat and make it kosher"?

Would it not be just a reasonable to compare, "why can't we take a treif
spoon and make it kosher?"

Surely the answer depends on how ingrained the treif-ness is in the
object, and it appears that music's level of ingrained treif-ness is
subject to debate!



From: Joshua W. Burton <jburton@...>
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 20:34:36 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: Wages

Sam Steingold <sds@...> writes:

> Boston is _much_ more expensive than Brooklyn when it comes to these
> kinds of things (house cleaning, babysitting &c) - jobs which are
> usually done for cash (== not reported ==> no taxes + possibly this is a
> supplement to SSI and welfare) by (possibly illegal) immigrants.

I think we might all benefit from some explicit comment from the list
moderator at this point, in regard to the limits of acceptable advocacy
(or winking at) behavior contrary to halakha and civil law that will be
tolerated here.

Joshua W. Burton <jwb@...>

[Advocacy of behaviour that violates halakha is not allowed on the
list. The above appears to me to be a description of a situation and a
suggestion that the situation that actually exists may be explained by
the fact that many people may be violating both tax and immigration
laws, which thereby keep the going rate for those affected jobs type
low. I do not see a problem with discussing this on the list. I would
have more problems (and would probably reject such a posting) with
someone advising people to find illegal immigrants and pay them only in
cash. Mod.]

From: <CARLSINGER@...> (Carl Singer)
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 21:06:34 EST
Subject: Wages

      There have been a number of posts on this topic.  Unfortunately I
      haven't seen (here or elsewhere) any opinions in halakha regarding
      appropriate wages.  And sadly I can't cite any either.

There was another issue in the original post -- and that was social
pressure (peer pressure) re: raising wages and impact on others who
employed this same person.


End of Volume 35 Issue 83