Volume 35 Number 84
                 Produced: Fri Jan  4  6:56:43 US/Eastern 2002

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Administrivia: Shamash Kosher Restaurant Database
         [Avi Feldblum]
Ibn Ezra Gn25-34--Any Defenses
         [Russell Jay Hendel]
         [Carl Singer]
Kaddish (3)
         [Harold Greenberg, Haim Snyder, A.M.Goldstein]
Kaddish priorities
         [Perry Zamek]
The Rav's views on not building the Temple
         [Russell Jay Hendel]
Shliach Tzibbur - Aveilut
         [Beth and David Cohen]
Shliach Tzibbut for Mourning
         [Janice Gelb]
Shloshim or Yahrtzeit - precedence
         [Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz]
Standing for Others' Mourners' Kaddish
         [Leah S. Gordon]


From: Avi Feldblum <mljewish@...>
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2002 06:37:42 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Administrivia: Shamash Kosher Restaurant Database

Shamash Kosher Restaurant Database needs Database and Perl CGI Programmers

Hello All,

The Kosher Restaurant Database has been an element of the Shamash and
mail-Jewish web sites for a number of years. It had been maintained first
by Avi Feldblum from mail-jewish and then by David Rosenthal from the
Shamash staff. However, over the last few years, the current format of
the database has made it too difficult to continue maintaining properly.

The database is currently actually just a flat file with a few perl
scripts to query and update the file, and all the actual maintenance /
updating is done by hand. To make the database more manageable, the time
has come for a complete overhaul. To do that, will require a few
volunteers who have the technical expertise to help set-up the
applications and write the critical cgi scripts.

A few of us have discussed what we think needs to be done, and we are
interested in any additional thoughts from people who have done similar
tasks. Basically, we will use mySQL as the actual database and then have
cgi scripts to support searching, updating and moderating the database.

The tasks that we need volunteers (especially people with expertise in the
area of databases and web interfaces to them) include:

a)	Design of the database table (identification and definition of all
b)	Import of existing data into mySQL database
c)	Cgi scripts allow for (a) search (b) updates (c) moderation
d)	Make comments have a name associated with each comment instead of
a montage of comments with one name.
e)	The moderation cgi needs to look at the old record, and highlight
changes in the new record to make it easy to identify.
f)	Get moderators to run parts of the approval/moderation using a
similar approval criterion process

The initial critical tasks for which we need some volunteers with both the
time and the technical expertise is the initial design/creation of the
mySQL database table and the creation of the cgi scripts (language not
determined, may depend on who is available and what their programming
language of choice is).

If you meet the criteria listed above, and have some time available now to
work on this project, please contact Avi by email. The Shamash Kosher
Database was once the best place on the web to get kosher restaurant
information, and I think it can still be that place, with the right help.

Avi Feldblum
mail-jewish Moderator

David Rosenthal
Shamash Staff


From: <rhendel@...> (Russell Jay Hendel)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 08:11:00 -0500 (EST)
Subject: RE: Ibn Ezra Gn25-34--Any Defenses

Saul Davis (v35n66) cites Ibn Ezra, Gn25-34 that Isaac was poor. But
Gn26-13:33 is very clear that Isaac became very rich, that the non-jews
were jealous of him, that there was sufficient water for both him and
non-jews he lived with.  (So Isaac became rich like Jacob).

Any defenses to Ibn Ezra? 

Russell Jay Hendel; http://www.RashiYomi.Com/


From: <CARLSINGER@...> (Carl Singer)
Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2001 21:19:06 EST
Subject: Re: Intermarriage

      Yes.  And I have done so on more than one occasion: "actively" not
      go.  This act of protest on my part, though, did not stop me
      afterwards from staying in touch with the people concerned or even
      from sending them Jewishly oriented gifts.

By "actively" not going I presume that means telling one or both of the
soon to be married that you do not approve / protest, etc.  Presuming
further that you do not believe that you will, in any way, be able to
stop the wedding --

Then what is the purpose of being "active" -- (a) to hurt the feelings
or somehow upset the couple and / or (b) self gratification.

Kol Tov

Carl Singer


From: Harold Greenberg <harold.greenberg@...>
Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 15:13:12 +0200
Subject: Kaddish

Everything and anything (almost) about KADDISH has been set down in a
book by Leon Wieseltier called KADDISH.  He grew up in an observant
home, but "threw off the yoke of the commandments".  As the book jacket
says "When Leon Wieseltier's father died in 1996, he began to observe
the rituals of the traditional year of mourning, going daily to the
synagogue to recite the Kaddish.  Between his prayers and his everyday
responsibilities, he sought out ancient, medieval and modern Jewish
texts in pursuit of the Kaddish's history and meaning."

A couple of thoughts from the book.
(1) Before the massacres of the crusades, Kaddish was almost not known;
after, it became widely known.
(2) When discussing the difficulty of the small, downtown Orthodox shuls of
getting a weekday minyan - "the angel of death is the best sexton". 

Zvi Greenberg
PO Box 8263 Eilat, Israel
 tel. 972 8 633 1566

From: <Haim.Snyder@...> (Haim Snyder)
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2002 12:49:36 +0200
Subject: Re: Kaddish

In Vol. 35 #79, Nuss Seif wrote

"Is there any halachic justification for a yahrtzeit for a parent to take
precedence over someone in the shloshim for a parent to lead the
minyan????  Both living in same community and regular members of shul???"

Since the person with the Yahrzeit has only that day during the entire
year when he has an obligation, whereas the person in shloshim (even for
a person other than his parent) has thirty days of obligation, the
Yahrzeit clearly takes precedence.  The only place this doesn't apply is
in the house of a mourner during the Shiva.  Therefore, a person
shouldn't go to such a minyan on a Yahrzeit.

The above assumes that both are acceptable as leaders of the prayer.  As
it is said, "Your parent's death made you an orphan, it didn't make you
a hazan."

Haim Shalom Snyder
Kfar Ganim, Petah Tikva

From: A.M.Goldstein <mzieashr@...>
Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 15:57:15 +0200
Subject: Kaddish

Saul Davis wrote:
>GGBH is the only place I have seen/heard this [having only one mourner
saying the Kaddish as a shaliah tzibbur]

Well, if you come to Haifa, you can find the practice in my congregation
(Neve Tefilla in the Neve Shaanan section of the city).  Each time, a
different person who is saying Kaddish recites it aloud.  The gabbai
assigns who says it when.  Last year, there were more mourners than
kaddishes unfortunately, so it was voted that this year all mourners go
to the front--actually the reader's lectern in more or less the
middle--after Aleinu and say the Kaddish together so as to enable a
person to say it aloud if he had not been selected to do so

A. M. Goldstein
Editor, Focus
University of Haifa
Tel.: 972-4-8240104
Fax:  972-4-342104


From: Perry Zamek <jmarksmn@...>
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 08:36:17 +0200 (EET)
Subject: Re: Kaddish priorities

Further to, and somewhat related to, the discussion on the priorities in
reciting Kaddish and serving as Shaliach Tzibbur, one siddur that I have
provides a list of chiyuvim for aliyot. At the end of the list, it
states "And the gabbai should use his good sense to effect a compromise
between individuals with competing claims..." (my paraphrase).

The recitation of Kaddish and serving as a SHaliach Tzibbur are meant to
provide an "aliyat ha-neshamah" (raising the soul to a higher
level). Any behaviour not consistent with this purpose is inappropriate,
at best, and a hillul ha-Shem at worst.

Furthermore, and I believe this is the halachic advice given in some of
the more modern texts on avelut, where the person with yahrzeit is
somewhat learned, while the other only has the ability to lead the
prayers, then the learned one should forgo his "prerogative" to serve as
Shaliach Tzibbur, and learn Mishnayot or something similar -- this way
the neshamah will have an aliyah, and a Kiddush HaShem will result.

Perry Zamek
(As my old sig line used to say,  "A person should live his life in such a
way that people will say of him, 'There goes a living Kiddush HaShem.'"


From: <rhendel@...> (Russell Jay Hendel)
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 08:05:28 -0500 (EST)
Subject: The Rav's views on not building the Temple

Background: In a recent posting I cited Rav Hirsch as interpreting ANAV,
not as meaning HUMBLE, but as meaning RESPONSIVE. Moses knew how to
respond to each situation--he vigorously fought Korach when Korach
attacked Moses but Moses vigorously defended Miriam when she slandered
him. Based on this meaning I interpreted the Gmarrah which states that
meaning that he did the right thing: No temple is better than a temple
with imperfect sacrifices since the goal of the temple is to help us to

Neil Normand in v35n74 states
>Rav Hirsch may very well understand the herberw word ANAV differently
than the common understanding, and certainly has good reasons for it. My
issue is your understanding of a Gemara that clearly is making a
critical statement about Rav Zecharia's actions, by saying that his
actions led to the destruction of the second temple, and claiming that
in reality the Gemara is praising Rav Zecharia for his actions.  It is
highly implausible..<

To briefly answer Neil: Yes, that is exactly what I am claiming. I am
also claiming that Rav Hirsch believed it and moreover I am claiming
that Judaism believes it. In fact I personally heard a similar thought
from the Rav (Joseph B Soloveitchick) whom I heard for many years:

The Rav in discussing an EXPLICIT Rambam in Laws of learning 2:2
>One does not stop school for children EVEN for building the Temple!<

The Rav illustrated: >Suppose the UN allowed us to build a temple but
only on condition that we completed it say by Jan 1 2002. Suppose the
only way of completing it was to get school children to help. Most
people would think this OK. Stop them from learning and let them build
the temple. THIS IS NOT THE VIEW OF JUDAISM. You dont stop learning for

Needless to say this made a deep impression on me. The temple is about
helping us reach perfection--about our learning continuously and not
having ANY blemishes. So it destroys the temple to stop children from
learning to build it. And it would destroy the temple if we allowed
blemished sacrifices. Rav Zecheria did the RIGHT thing. We are better
off with no temple then with a temple with blemished sacrifices.

Why? Because now at least we have something to hope for.

Russell Jay Hendel; http://www.RashiYomi.com/ NEW & IMPROVED


From: Beth and David Cohen <bdcohen@...>
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 09:07:19 -0500
Subject: Shliach Tzibbur - Aveilut

The question was posed: does a person with yahretzeit for a parent have
precedence to be the shliach tzibbur over someone who is in shloshim for
a parent. The short answer is that actually anyone avail (i.e. within
the year of the death of a parent)takes precedence over anyone just
saying kaddish on the yahretzeit of a relative including a
parent. However, an American phenomenom seems to be taking place, that
since some people do not usually attend regular minyan and only show up
when they have a yahretzeit, there is a feeling that they're "entitled"
to be the shaliach tzibbur. This is not the proper rule (since we hold,
tadir v'sheayno tadir, tadir kodem) nevertheless, some American ethos
seems to take over in many congregations.

David I. Cohen


From: Janice Gelb <j_gelb@...>
Date: Mon, 31 Dec 2001 10:23:45 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Shliach Tzibbut for Mourning

Nuss Seif <NUSSEIF@...> wrote:
> Is there any halachic justification for a yahrtzeit 
> for a parent to take precedence over someone in the 
> shloshim for a parent to lead the minyan????  Both 
> living in same community and regular members of shul???

My understanding from my aveilut was that precedence is always given to
the yahrtzeit because it only happens one day a year.

-- Janice


From: Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz <sabbahem@...>
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2002 09:22:16 -0500
Subject: RE: Shloshim or Yahrtzeit - precedence

>From: <CARLSINGER@...> (Carl Singer)
>      Is there any halachic justification for a yahrtzeit for a parent
>      to take precedence over someone in the shloshim for a parent to
>      lead the minyan????  Both living in same community and regular
>      members of shul???
>There is a specific "pecking order" -- I just don't know whether there
>are variations specific to given communities / traditions.

Logically, it would appear that, since the yahrtzeit is just for that
one day, and will not occur again until the following year, while the
shloshim will have the opportunity for the entire shloshim, then the
yahrtzeit should take precedence.  However, this is a logical argument
only and I do not have a source for this.  It is possible that I heard
it in a shiur, but I do not remember where it would be from.

Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz - <sabbahem@...>


From: Leah S. Gordon <leah@...>
Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2002 18:05:29 -0800
Subject: Standing for Others' Mourners' Kaddish

 From a purely sociological (not halakhic) standpoint, I think that it
is more polite to stand (or remain standing) when someone else starts
saying kaddish.  It seems to me that to sit is to make a huge point of
the fact that *you* are not mourning, and it seems kind of rude.  Also,
if everyone is standing, it is a more supportive, communal atmosphere
surrounding (comforting?) the mourner(s).



End of Volume 35 Issue 84