Volume 37 Number 33
                 Produced: Wed Oct  9 19:49:15 US/Eastern 2002

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Buttons on kittels
         [Perets Mett]
Canvas Sukkah
         [Jeffrey Saks]
Canvas Sukkahs
Cholent stain
         [Yehonatan and Randy Chipman]
Eshet Kohen
         [Aryeh A. Frimer]
Generized eiruv -- tallit
         [Yehonatan Chipman]
Holishkes and Kreplach
         [Batya Medad]
Lashon Hara question
         [David Waxman]
looking for reference to animals/qualities learned (2)
         [Mordechai, Yossie Abramson]
Mezuzot on doorless entranceways
         [Shimon Harary]
post-Yom Kippur slach lanu
         [Neal Ross Attinson]
Pruzbul as legal fiction?
         [Shmuel Himelstein]
Tallis at lunch
         [Shimon Lebowitz]
Travel on (or close to) Shabbat & Yom Tov


From: Perets Mett <p.mett@...>
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 11:32:24 +0100
Subject: Re: Buttons on kittels

Jack Wechsler <wechsler@...> wrote:
>I wonder if other people have noticed the same as I did this year. Some
>kittel's for the yomim norayim have the buttons on the left and the
>buttonholes on the right.ie. they buttonup like a female garment surely
>there is a reason ?

This question has an in-built assumption, that men should button their
clothes left over right.

Jewish tradition has it that clothes are worn right over left.  Nowadays
fashion has overtaken tradition and ready-made clothing for men buttons
left over right. No doubt someone on this list knows the origin of this

However, clothing made specifically for the Jewish market (kapote, frak,
kitl, suits with full-length coats etc) continues to be made the
traditional way, buttoning right over left.

Nevertheless, some mass manufacture of kitls has been contracted to
non-Jewish clothiers who fail to grasp this point, and therefore put the
buttons on the right (ie the wrong side).

The kitl worn by meisim does indeed have its buttons removed, but is
folded right over left (just coming up to 30 years experience on a
chevra kadisha)

Perets Mett


From: Jeffrey Saks <atid@...>
Subject: Canvas Sukkah

For more on the canvas sukkah issue, see: Yeshai Koenigsberg, "The Canvas
Succah" in Journal of Halacha & Contemporary Society XL (Fall 2000).
Available on-line at:


From: <Phyllostac@...> (Mordechai)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 02:26:59 EDT
Subject: Canvas Sukkahs

A very thorough and comprehensive treatment of the subject appeared in
the 'Journal of Halacha and Contemporary Society' (an English language
periodical published by RJJ [Yeshiva Rabbi Jacob Joseph in the USA]) not
that long ago (within the last 2-3 years or so, I think).

Highly recommended for study to those interested.....



From: Yehonatan and Randy Chipman <yonarand@...>
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 17:13:15 +0200
Subject: Re: Cholent stain

Dear Andy,

     I retold the story about the fish stained tallis at the Yomtov
table in the presence of an expert on hasidic slore, who added the
following details:

    The incident occurred, not at the tish of the the Kozhnitzer Maggid,
but Reb Barukh of Medzibozh (grandson of the Baal Shem Tov).  The latter
not only wore this tallit every Shabbat, but before he died ordered
that, rather than it being buried with him, his son should inherut it
and wear it on Shabbat, because of its great holiness.  The tallit was
passed down in this manner through several generations (I don't remember
the other names of its owners); at a certain point it was only used on
Yom Kippur, and later still only at Neilah.  In the 1930's, when the
Munkaczer Rebbe foresaw the Holocaust on the horizon he ordered that
this tallit be buried with him, as otherwise it would anyway be
destroyed in the Holocaust (as were of course innumerable precious and
historical objects belonging to Jews.  We have our own family story
about a small book of prayers for the dead, that originally belonged to
Rav Yehonatan Eybeshchutz and had an inscription in his hand that
belonged to my great-aunt, and was destroyed together with her).

    Kol tuv,


From: Aryeh A. Frimer <frimea@...>
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 11:52:59 +0200
Subject: Eshet Kohen

What's the status of a pregnant Eshet Kohen at a beit kevarot,
especially now where the gender of the Fetus can be ascertained?



From: Yehonatan Chipman <yonarand@...>
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 17:13:09 +0200
Subject: Re:  Generized eiruv -- tallit

Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz wrote (MJ v37n28):

<<I have seen men wearing the talis while pushing the baby carriage.  It
is a matter of considering what is "really necessary" as opposed to a
minor convenience.>>

Just a short comment: wearing the tallit in the street does not
necessarily mean that the person man in question doesn't carry.  There
is a certain element of kavod mitzvah and maybe even of the tallt adding
to the hadar of ones Shabbat clothes in wearing the tallit in the
street, and especially when entering shul.  There are people in
Jerusalem who on weekdays walk to synagogue wearing tallit and tefillin,
and vice versa at the end of tefilla.

  Yehonatan Chipman


From: Batya Medad <ybmedad@...>
Date: Tue, 08 Oct 2002 18:42:45 +0200
Subject: Holishkes and Kreplach

The reason I read in some old Jewish cookbooks, was that those foods are
one-pot meals.  Only a minimum of pots were carried out to the succah.
Also, meals were much less complex.  One good stew, or a hearty soup
with kreplach and challah were it, even on Shabbat or chaggim.



From: David Waxman <yitz99@...>
Date: Mon, 07 Oct 2002 17:09:59 +0200
Subject: Lashon Hara question

>Is it forbidden to talk about another person's negative qualities to a
>trusted colleague for a constructive purpose, such as learning how to
>deal with that person better, or is that lashon hara?

This sounds like an issue that I heard Rav Yitzchak Berkowitz shlita
deal with on one of his tapes.  That is, how to deal with L.H. and
children.  Scenario - your child comes home from cheder and starts to
tell you about a fight that he had with his (ex) best friend.  Do you
change the subject?  Do you listen?  The issue gets into some grey areas
that are not explicitly dealt with in the Chofetz Chaim, but come up
regularly with parents.

Anyway, l'aniyot dati, your question sounds like one that is fraught
with danger. Proceed with caution and wise counsel!


From: <Phyllostac@...> (Mordechai)
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 02:39:43 EDT
Subject: looking for reference to animals/qualities learned

>From: Francine S. Glazer <fglazer@...>
>I am looking for a reference in the texts to what we learn from each animal.
>Stems from a discussion I had recently re: the spider was put here to hide
>Dovid haMelech, the wasp to wake him, etc.  Isn't there a more extensive
>list somewhere in Talmud?

The subject title of your post seems to imply something different than
the examples mentioned in it.

You may be thinking of 'perek shira' - an ancient Jewish text talking
about different animals / creatures and how each praises G-d in
accordance with it's individual nature. An excellent study / commentary
of / on it has recently been issued in English by the 'Zoo Rabbi', Rabbi
Nosson Slifkin, called 'Nature's Song' (see www.zootorah.com for more on
this very interesting Rabbi who is an expert on zoology, among other
things. The site also has more information on the aforementioned work of

The examples you mentioned about the spider saving Dovid haMelech, etc.,
are of a somewhat different nature though, although also quite
interesting. I am not aware of a comprehensive list along those lines -
just isolated example(s).


From: Yossie Abramson <yossiea@...>
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 01:13:40 -0400
Subject: Re: looking for reference to animals/qualities learned

I don't know a site off hand, but two "animals" come to mind.
We learn modesty from a cat. a) It has a concealed place to take care of
business, and b) it requires privacy.
We should also learn perseverance from ants. You can actually just sit and
watch an ant for hours doing its job. It is really amazing.



From: Shimon Harary <mendy2@...>
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 00:17:52 -0400
Subject: Mezuzot on doorless entranceways


    I was wondering if anyone knew how to decide on which side of an
entranceway one places a mezuza if that entranceway is used in both
directions, ie a hallway entrance or a kitchen with 2 entranceways at
either end, both used for "entering" [from/to dining area] and "leaving"
[to/from living area]. No entranceway has any door. Whats "in" and whats
"out" ? Thank you.


From: Neal Ross Attinson <scoop@...>
Subject: post-Yom Kippur slach lanu

Perhaps I'm being obtuse, but do we not daven "slach lanu" (or its
semantical equivalent) as part of the daily amidah? How then would one
more "slach lanu" after ne'ilah be problematic?

Neal Ross Attinson


From: Shmuel Himelstein <himels@...>
Date: Wed, 09 Oct 2002 07:26:02 +0400
Subject: Pruzbul as legal fiction?

A week or two ago a statement was made in Mail Jewish that Pruzbul is
universally accepted as a "legal fiction." I've been waiting in vain in
the intervening period for someone to comment on this, but as no one
has, I think it imperative that that statement be firmly and totally
rejected and negated.

The statement itself is a primary and fundamental mainstay of the
Conservative Movement, which uses the "fact" of the "legal fiction" to
permit all types of modifications in Halachah.

Halachic thought, as I understand it, is that what Hillel did was merely
to instutionalize a method which is built into the basic Halachah
itself, namely the fact that debts under the jurisdiction of the Beit
Din are not covered by the release of debts in the Shmittah year. In no
way was his approach a method of bypassing the Torah law by resorting to
any legal fiction.

Along the same lines, the sale of Chametz prior to Pesach is not meant
to be a legal fiction at all, and the Jew selling it must be willing to
deliver all the Chametz to the non-Jew who bought it if the non-Jew pays
the market value of the Chametz.

My point here is not a semantic quibble, but a major (in my opinion)
point in Hashkafah (Halachic Jewish thought), and as such, statements
such as the above cannot afford to remain unchallenged.

Incidentally, an example of a legal fiction, from English law, is that
centuries ago legal documents in England had to name the town in which
they were located as well as the river along which the town was
situated. If a town was not situated near a river, the contract would
say "in the town of ... along the river ....", even if that particular
river might be miles away.

Shmuel Himelstein


From: Shimon Lebowitz <shimonl@...>
Date: Wed, 9 Oct 2002 08:09:32 +0200
Subject: Re: Tallis at lunch

> Some would say that if you took off your tallis after davening (say
> for kiddish or perhaps an in-shlue luncheon) then to put it back on
> again to wear it home would be questionable.

As my understanding goes, *wearing* a tallit is never "questionable"
(well.. except in a mikva, I guess).  The only question I can think of
is whether or not to make a brocho when putting it on. So??  It can be
taken off for the kiddush and worn again to go home, without a brocho.

Shimon (Who *enjoys* leaving my tallis on until I get 
home, it just feels "shabbosdik" to walk home in it) ;-)
Shimon Lebowitz                           mailto:<shimonl@...>
Jerusalem, Israel            PGP: http://shimonl.findhere.org/PGP/


From: <chips@...>
Date: Tue, 8 Oct 2002 21:27:49 -0700
Subject: Re: Travel on (or close to) Shabbat & Yom Tov

> From: Batya Medad <ybmedad@...>
> About the train on Shabbat.  What about marat eyin, or carrying around
> muksah?  Who comes home from work with only a ticket, pre-punched won't
> be accepted on the train?  Pre-arrange for a goy to carry everything and
> shlepp home?  Doesn't sound right.

Funny thing about `marat eyin` and hilchos Shabos - `marat eyin` is
never (i know, i know - never say never) brought up as a reason one is
not allowed to do something which would appear to violate Shabos but
does not.

For instance - a private eiruv that covers only a few houses and not a
full city. Who paskens people in houseA can't carry to houseF becuase of
`marat eyin`?

Another instance - if one makes an eiruv so they can go more than 2000
amos outside their "Shabos home base" , who paskens that they are not
allowed to setup the eiruv and use it due to someone who is a mile away
when Shabos started seeing them?


End of Volume 37 Issue 33