Volume 38 Number 24
                 Produced: Tue Jan  7  6:28:11 US/Eastern 2003

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Cooking for Shabbat
         [Ari Kahn]
Hamar Medina
         [Ira L. Jacobson]
Lack of Job Training
         [Tzadik Vanderhoof]
The last word on Eliezer's merits??
Lunar-Solar calendar
         [Ben Z. Katz]
Making of a Gadol
         [Tzadik Vanderhoof]
Naming Babies
         [Karen Cahn]
Out of Town
         [Carl Singer]
Synagogue charters / Shul constitutions
         [Yisrael Medad]
Tachanun and the Groom
         [Aliza Berger / Dov Cooper]


From: Ari Kahn <kahnar@...>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 21:44:29 +0200
Subject: RE: Cooking for Shabbat

>In the course of a response to Russell Hendel, Anonymous writes, "a pot
>can be put up right before Shabbos, to cook on Shabbos, if it is
>completely raw".

>Expressing no opinion on the underlying discussion re: Nolad, unless I
>have misunderstood the coment, I find it at odds with Shimirat Shabbat
>Chilchata Chapter 1 Paragraph 63.

Look at Shmirat Shabbat in the section you cited Chapter 1 Paragraph 63
footnote 189 where he cites this exception - when the food is raw. Of
course this is based on Shulchan Oruch 253:1 and Mishna Breura 10.  The
Shmirat Shabbat is a wonderful book for Psak, but at times a difficult
one to learn Halacha from, especially when you need to understand
underling principles. Either way footnotes must be consulted, before
drawing a conclusion regarding his rulings.

Ari Kahn


From: Ira L. Jacobson <laser@...>
Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 18:43:23 +0200
Subject: Re: Hamar Medina

I had stated:
>The Mishna Berura goes on to quote from Sha`arei Teshuva, who quotes
>Birkei Yosef that one may not make havdala on milk or oil.  And he
>restates that in Mishna Berura 272:25.
>I checked the Birkei Yosef 296:2, who does indeed state that many people
>misunderstand the Mehaber's statement that liquids other than water
>would permit them to make havdala on milk or oil.  But the Birkei Yosef
>calls this an error!

There is an additional consideration here, with regard to claims that
milk is not regarded today as it was in the time of these posqim.  I
quote with minor changes from someone who made a similar point in a
different context:

"Just as--when Hazal have made a gezeira--we do not limit that gezeira
based on our understanding of its rationale (intermarriage,
socialization, etc.--for example, Hazal banned stam yenam and not
beer--and we continue to allow goyish beer, and not wine, despite, in
many countries today, beer's being the primary socialization vehicle),
on what basis are we free to extend the gezeira based on the same
principles?"  I ask, on what basis are we free to _cancel_ the gezeira
based on the same principles?

And this is in addition to the fact that adults in Israel almost
uniformly do not ever drink milk, as is also accurate for children above
the age of a few years.



From: Tzadik Vanderhoof <tzadikv@...>
Subject: Lack of Job Training

This is slightly related to the Rambam/kollel discussion... how do you
all feel about the following *very* common scenario:

- An Israeli "heredi" child goes through an educational system /
cultural atmosphere that *gurantees* that he will reach adulthood with
*no* marketable skills.

- He marries and has a vary large family, again, based on the cultural
atmosphere, with woefully inadequate means to support them and sends his
kids through the same type of educational system.  He either relies on
kollel or low-paying jobs to support his family.  He also goes deeply in

- He then shows up at my door asking me to help bail him out of debt and
pay for his daughters' weddings.  The only reason I'm in a position to
help him is because I and my parents made the opposite decisions that he
and his family have made.


From: c.halevi <c.halevi@...>
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 20:51:58 -0600
Subject: The last word on Eliezer's merits??

Shalom, All:

        Could this be the last word on Eliezer's status? You decide.

        I was reading the Encyclopedia Judaica's entry on Eliezer and
saw that it concluded with the Derech Eretz Zuta, a very old
(near-Talmudic) source. (Those who want info on the Derech Eretz Zuta
can find some at the online encyc., the Encyclopedia of Judaism,

        The Derech Eretz Zuta flat out said that Eliezer was so worthy
that he was one of less than a dozen human beings who ever entered
Paradise alive.

        Granted, this is not a well known source but it is genuine and,
says the Encyc. Judaica, does make the above statement on Eliezer's

Yeshaya (Charles Chi) Halevi


From: Ben Z. Katz <bkatz@...>
Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 11:07:25 -0600
Subject: Re: Lunar-Solar calendar

>From: Shmuel Himelstein <himels@...>
>I recently learned that ours is not the only lunar-solar calendar, and
>that the Chinese calendar is also one, with the new year in January or
>February.  They add a leap month every three years (as opposed to our 7
>times in 19 years). I assume that there was no communication between the
>two groups who adopted these.

I believe the Babylonians had a lunar-solar calendar as far back as the
4th or 5th century BCE.  We unfortnately had a lot of contact with them
and their successors, the Persians, from whom the Talmud acknowledges we
adopted the names of the months (as oppossed to the earlier Hebrew names
for the months, 4 of which are known from Tanach - Aviv, Etanim, Ziv and

Ben Z. Katz, M.D.
Children's Memorial Hospital, Division of Infectious Diseases
2300 Children's Plaza, Box # 20, Chicago, IL 60614
Ph 773-880-4187, Fax 773-880-8226

To: <mail-jewish@...>

From: Tzadik Vanderhoof <tzadikv@...>
Subject: Making of a Gadol

I found it somewhat amusing that I found "Making of a Gadol" on Ebay for
a $300 minimum bid.


From: <Minikar30@...> (Karen Cahn)
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 13:35:17 EST
Subject: Re: Naming Babies

> From: Jonathan Katz <jkatz@...>
> I would appreciate any information, sources, or perspective on "baby
> naming"; in particular on the custom of naming babies after other
> people.  Some specific questions I have in mind include: When naming a
> baby after another person, what exactly is the purpose? Does the purpose
> apply even if one (or both) of the parents have never met the person for
> whom the baby is being named? Is there a "precedence list" for choosing
> whom to name the baby after?

I know few facts on naming babies, as I've never had the privilege of
doing so, but this past week I learned a few things on naming babies
(From Rabbi David Walk, Rabbi David Israel, and my father, Jeffrey Cahn,
all of Stamford, CT). Some believe that when parents name their babies
they are given a little Ruach HaKodesh (divine knowledge) because a name
defines who a person becomes. Some Chasidim have their rebbe name their
children for this reason. However, it is more likely that now, for most
of us, when we name a baby, it is our bracha (blessing) and tfilah
(prayer) that they will emulate the characteristics of their namesake,
whether it be in the translation of the name, the biblical figure, or a
relative. The custom of naming babies after our relatives most likely
began at the time of the Black Plague. During this time, the death rate
was higher than the birthrate, and, wanting them to live longer, began
naming babies after relatives who had passed away in order for the name
to live on.

So who do you name after first? I'm not sure it matters, though many
people weigh who they were closer to, who has no one named after them,
etc. Also, we learn in Parshat Vayetzei, from Leah, that the mother gets
"first dibs," so to speak, on naming the child. (However, she may give
this right to her husband)

Karen Cahn


From: <CARLSINGER@...> (Carl Singer)
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 2003 08:19:44 EST
Subject: Re: Out of Town

      I used to think that too, until I spent three weeks "out of town"
      where there were 2 shulls. One was the official shull and the
      other was a Yeshivish shulle established by the local
      shochtim. The official shulle drove the Yeshivish shulle out of
      business. For example, the rebbeim in the town would have
      naturally graduated toward the Yeshivish shulle. However, the
      official shulle owned the yeshiva and required the rebbeim to sign
      a clause in their contract forbidding them from walking into the
      Yeshivish shulle. As a visiting bochur part of a kiruv program I
      was told not to walk into the Yeshivish shulle. My dads from out
      of town and talks of how everyone got along. I was shocked by my

One example, or one counterexample does not prove a point --

I'm not sure what town you're talking about, not that it matters, but
you could be talking about many with variations on a theme -- The town
that I know that had a Schochet's minyan in an old house, which was
left, to some extent, high and dry when the large, kosher chicken
manufacturer relocated away and left many without local parnuseh
(income.)  Many in that minyan really didn't integrate themselves into
the community -- this was a convenient perch from which to get to and
from work.  Their families lived elsewhere.  BUT in that town as in
other towns that I visited understanding the history was important to
understanding the current situation.

"Out of town" There is often a long standing (many generations) single
local community with a shule that met everyone's needs.  Davening, food
co-op, daycare, etc.  Even Jews who were members of the Conservative
congregation supported this one (a) because their grandparents, etc.,
had been members and (b) because small town Jewish communities stick
together, even beyond what has today become a religious DIVIDE and (c)
because of in some cases, common day-school links.  [Two other examples,
I recall over my many years of visiting such communities: The
Conservative Rabbi, his wife being out of town, having Shabbos dinner at
the home of one of the School Rebbes.  The Rabbi of the Orthodox shule
rushing to the hospital to visit a member of the Conservative
congregation when the Conservative Rabbi was out of town.  I think it
used to be called menchlechkite.]

Among the balabatim, the same balabatim who (for family generations)
supported the shule, supported the school (again a single local
community school) -- and YES the shule compromised and made
accommodations and was more flexible than one might expect in a frum
community that has many shules -- that is one where people select a
shule from among many options, one that's closest to their
self-perceived needs or for those who can't seem to get along with
anyone they can "hop & complain" from shule to shule at regular
intervals.  You must visit such a community with a different attitude.
One of inclusion, not exclusion.  You don't throw a hissy-fit because
it's obvious from the bulge in his back pocket that the person davening
in front of you is carrying a wallet.

In this community an influx of "big city" (is that the politically
correct opposite of "out of town" ) Jews arrived and found this shule,
in being accommodating to its community, wasn't frum enough for them.
[Typical examples, included height of the mechiza, although in previous
generations a noted Rav had approved it, Jewish "status" of some of the
congregants, frumkite of some congregants ("How can you give an Aliyah
to Mr. Jones -- we know he's not Shomer Shabbes?")  English prayer for
the U.S. Government and for Israel, etc.]  The new comers agitated (my
interpretation) and tried to form a separate minyan.  The established
community balabatim saw this as (a) detrimental to the community and (b)
detrimental to their own (non-altruistic) wants and needs -- and they
fought it -- I never heard of contracts such as mentioned in above, but
who knows.

I do know that in a town that I visited annually for over a dozen years,
that Rebbeim from the day school would give shiurim at appropriate
levels for balabatim, in an informal outreach program.  That these
Rebbeim and their wives sacrificed the ease and comfort of living "in
town" where, among other things, education for their children,
shidduchim, etc., would be easier.  Where even something that many of us
take for granted, picking up a few challahs for Shabbos, meant, instead,
planning and baking -- even if you're too busy or not feeling well.  I
always found it a pleasure to visit and be among such "shayneh Yiddin."

Carl Singer


From: Yisrael Medad <ybmedad@...>
Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 21:13:13 +0200
Subject: Synagogue charters / Shul constitutions

Some 15 years ago, I collected perhaps a dozen Takanot including that of
the UK United Synagogue from 184?, some from Europe and more recently
from many batei-knesset here in Israel.  (I also went through sifrei
halacha to define the purpose and use of a synagogue - questions of
chazaka, permitted or not; prayer customs; etc.)  If I ever find them, I
could at least mention the names of the synagogues.  One was from a
Mizrachi-type synagogue somewhere in Poland which I found at Hebrew U.

Y. Medad


From: Aliza Berger / Dov Cooper <alizadov@...>
Date: Sun, 05 Jan 2003 10:04:20 +0200
Subject: RE: Tachanun and the Groom

Based on that logic [no tachanun the morning of the wedding], tachanun
shouldn't be said in the presence of any engaged person.  Unlike a brit
milah [circumcision] where an active participant (the father or the
mohel) on the day of the brit exempts the other davenners from tachanun,
I was always under the impression that it was *only after* the wedding
that the groom created the "pitor" [exemption] for tachanun.

Dov Cooper

What if the bride is present in shul?

Aliza Berger

Aliza Berger & Dov Cooper
Betar 22/1, Jerusalem 93386  Israel
Home: +972 2 671-2955, Cell: +972 55 323-948 (A)  +972 54 722-948


End of Volume 38 Issue 24