Volume 38 Number 75
                 Produced: Mon Mar  3 23:13:25 US/Eastern 2003

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Brushing Teeth on Shabbat
         [Gershon Dubin]
chalav yisroel / non-chalav yisroel oven use
Dressing Munkacs Style (5)
         [Stephen Colman, Gil Student, Dov Teichman, Yisrael and Batya
Medad, Jacob Sasson]
Falling on left side for tahanun in shaharit (2)
         [rach elms, Dani Wassner]
Kaddeishim before pesukei dezimra (2)
         [Mordechai, Boruch Merzel]
Local Kashrut and related Communal Responsibilties
         [Janice Gelb]
No Minyan at Starting Time?
         [Baruch J. Schwartz]
Tachnun on the left arm
Tefillin on chol haMoed in Eretz Yisroel
Waiting for Kaddish
         [Rafi Stern]


From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@...>
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 00:12:05 -0500
Subject: Brushing Teeth on Shabbat

From: David Yehuda Shabtai <dys6@...>
<<For those who brush their teeth....>>

CYLOR concerning whether brushing one's teeth on Shabbos is permissible.


[See also v26 n9 & n13 on this topic, which has been discussed a few
times on the list. Mod.]


From: Seinfeld <aseinfeld@...>
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 01:43:34 -0800
Subject: Re: chalav yisroel / non-chalav yisroel oven use

Was the posek a Chabad rabbi? It sounds like a Chabad chumra (I know for
a fact that they consider food cooked in "non-halav-Yisroel" pots (even
aino ben yomo) - traife.

> From: <Smwise3@...>
> I just heard a  psak that I wonder if anyone else has heard.  A friend of my
> wife's says she was told that if someone uses the friend's oven to bake
> something that is non chalav yisroel and then the friend bakes something
> chalav yisroel in it without first self cleaning, one must not use the chalav
> yisroel baked good because of the previous non chalav yisroel use.


From: <StephenColman2@...> (Stephen Colman)
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 04:46:09 EST
Subject: Dressing Munkacs Style

Jeanette Friedman quotes her uncle Eugene as quoting the 'Mukacs minhog'
of dressing: ' and you have to put your right shoe on first, before you
put on the left shoe, and you should tie the left shoe before you tie
the right shoe.'

Far from being a 'mere' Munkacs minhag, it is brought down in Shulchon
Aruch Orach Chaim Simon beis  sk daled.

From: Gil Student <gil_student@...>
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 11:39:59 -0500
Subject: Re: Dressing Munkacs Style

This is straight out of Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chaim 2:4.  While
there are those who limit its application (see, for example, the
Perishah on the Tur), the Munkaczer Rebbe was following the simple
words of the Shulchan Aruch.

Gil Student

From: <DTnLA@...> (Dov Teichman)
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 23:18:42 EST
Subject: Re: Dressing Munkacs Style

The practice of buttoning right over left is a well known custom among
all chassidim. About wearing short jackets, he may have forbade wearing
short jackets but what he did write (Divrei Torah I:58) was that there
are very early sources for the Jewish CUSTOM of wearing long garments in
the Talmud Maseches Shabbos 113a, Shulchan Aruch Hilchos Shabbos 263:2,
as well as in Yerushalmi and other later works, as is quoted in the
footnote in Darkei Chaim VeSholom #366. As for the shoe wearing/tying
that is found much earlier in Shulchan Aruch 2:4.

Dov Teichman

From: Yisrael and Batya Medad <ybmedad@...>
Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 00:04:04 +0200
Subject: Dressing Munkacs Style

The Shulchan Arukh designates the right as the preferred side
for all dressing procedures, See Par. 2:4:
yinol minal yamin techila, and the MB there notes that the Torah
considers the right as more important.
So Munkacz is derivative minhag.

From: Jacob Sasson <jacobsasson@...>
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 13:27:15 -0500
Subject: Re: Dressing Munkacs Style

The last part about the shoes is a halachah in the Shulchan Aruch (2:4)
Jacob Sasson


From: rach elms <rachelms79@...>
Date: 3 Mar 2003 05:55:12 -0800
Subject: Re:  Falling on left side for tahanun in shaharit

This is the ruling of the Mechaber OC 131:1.  I assume Sefaradim follow
this practice; thus the original question should have specified which
famous Ashkenazi rav did so too - and as previously posted, the answer
was the Gra.

From: Dani Wassner <dani@...>
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 09:30:55 +0200 
Subject: Re: Falling on left side for tahanun in shaharit

Can I ask a broader question?

Where does the whole custom of "falling" come from? Why don't sefardim do
it? Why change sides for mincha? Why use a tallit or tefilin strap
between the forehead and the arm?

Dani Wassner


From: <Phyllostac@...> (Mordechai)
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 04:42:30 EST
Subject: Kaddeishim before pesukei dezimra

 From: Shmuel Himelstein <himels@...>
> Carl Singer, parenthetically, brings up an interesting issue.

> Toward the beginning of Shacharit, there is a Kaddish d'Rabbanan and (in
> the Ashkenaz Nusach) Kaddish Yatom.

> What should be done if there is no Minyan present at the time? Wait a
> few minutes for a Minyan so that the kaddish-sayers will be able to say
> kaddish? Or simply start regardless and skip that kaddish or those
> kaddeshim?

> My personal preference is to have the congregation begin at the assigned
> time regardless, because - among others - of Tirchah d'Tzibbura - the
> need not to keep the community waiting.........

Those kaddeishim are relatively recent innovations, deriving from the
Ar"i. They are not part of the original nusach Ashkenaz (and presumably
not nusach Sepharadim pre Ar"i either ?) They are not seen in older
siddurim (see notes in siddur 'Eizor Eliyohu' for info on this), and are
omitted in some places. Therefore I would say that the congregation
should proceed and not wait.

There is a problem of too many kadeishim (as well as tefillos) being
recited with less and less kavonnoh, as time goes by. It seems that
often (if not always) the amount of of kavonnoh is inversely
proportional to the amount of prayers - in other words, if people are
made to say too many prayers, they are more likely to rush through them
with lesser kavonnoh. We have a rule that 'tov miat bikavonnoh meharbos
bilo kavonnoh' (better a bit with kavonnoh than alot without it)
(beginning of Shulchan Oruch Orach Chayim). We should opt for quality
over quantity.


From: <BoJoM@...> (Boruch Merzel)
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 11:56:10 EST
Subject: Re: Kaddeishim before pesukei dezimra

It should be noted that the Aruch Hashulchan states in the name of the
Rambam that the Kaddish D'Rabbanim (to which Shmuel H. here has
reference) should be recited only if ten men ( a complete minyan) have
studied a passage of the Talmud together.(Aruch Hashulchan siman 55,
s'if 8)

Thus waiting for a 10th person, who has not recited or studied the
passage together with rest of the minyan, would be inappropriate.

The better idea would be to skip the reading of "R'Yishamel omer" at the
beginning of the davening --- if there is not a complete minyan---and
recite it, instead,at the end of the service, with a the minyan and then
Kaddish D'rabbanim can be properly said.  

Boruch Merzel


From: Janice Gelb <j_gelb@...>
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 11:44:18 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: Local Kashrut and related Communal Responsibilties

Beth and David Cohen <bdcohen@...>
> Every year Kashrus magazine publishes a list of hundreds of symbols for
> Kashrus agencies around the world which includes contact information,
> background of the responsible Rabbinic authority, standards used and
> much more.

A list of agencies and symbols listed by state and 
country can be found at http://www.kashrut.com/agencies/

Trader Joe's supermarket posts a list of kashrut symbols and 
contact information on its web site:


-- Janice


From: Baruch J. Schwartz <schwrtz@...>
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 12:40:50 +0200
Subject: No Minyan at Starting Time?

In response to Shmuel Himelstein, who writes:

"What should be done if there is no Minyan present [at the time the
davening is slated to begin]? Wait a few minutes for a Minyan so that
the kaddish-sayers will be able to say kaddish? Or simply start
regardless and skip that kaddish or those kaddeshim?"

In the popular mind, it often seems, the minyan exists primarily for the
purpose of the people who want to say kaddish ("I discharge my
obligation to pray, and God will accept my prayers, if I pray alone; but
I come to shul out of consideration for those who want to say kaddish
and need a minyan; I hope they will do the same for me when r"l the time

Further, it is often true that mourners reciting kaddish feel a deep
need to say "every" kaddish, which they define to include these
kaddishim recited today before pesukei dezimra.

If these widespread popular misconceptions are prevalent in your minyan,
and you feel powerless to change them, then the best thing to do is coax
and encourage people to come on time and hope they cooperate.

But if occasionally they do not, there are still many good reasons to
begin without a minyan and skip those kaddishim:

1. Starting late is disrespectful to the Ribbono shel Olam.

2. Starting late indulges those who come late and penalizes those who
come on time, many of whom need (or would like) to leave by a certain
time as well. That's not fair.

3. Pesuke dezimra does not require a minyan, and the kaddishim before it
are optional, non-statutory, and recently introduced. Presumably, by the
time you get to yishtabah there will be a minyan.

4. If, as a result of waiting so someone can say an optional extra
kaddish or two, a whole lot of others need to leave before the end of
the davening, I would say the loss is greater than the gain.

5. The best way to encourage promptness next week is to start precisely
on time this week. When the members see that the gabbaim are not serious
about the clock, they won't be either; a two-minute delay today becomes
a five-minutes delay next week. [By the way there are clear halachot to
the effect that once there is a minyan and the set time for davening has
arrived, it is not permitted to wait -- either for someone in particular
or for "a bigger minyan". Once the shechina is present, whom are you
waiting for?]



From: <JoshHoff@...>
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 00:13:23 EST
Subject: Re: Tachnun on the left arm

Rav Shachter has said that Rav Soloveitchik fell on his left arm for
tachnun even during Shacharis when he had his teffilin on.


From: <Phyllostac@...> (Mordechai)
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 04:27:51 EST
Subject: Tefillin on chol haMoed in Eretz Yisroel

<< From: Mark Steiner <marksa@...>
   In Eretz Yisroel, all the historic founders of the Jewish
communities (namely the disciplines of the Vilna Gaon, the disciples of
the Baal Hatanya, and the Sefardim) refrain from donning tefillin on Hal
Hamoed.  Thus, those who visit (or even come to live) may NOT wear
tefillin then, certainly not publicly.  It is customary even to request
visitors not to put on their tefillin.  This (rare) agreement of all of
the "Exiles" creates an iron clad minhag [custom]............

   This "psak" on lo sisgodedu does not apply anywhere else but the
Land of Israel. >>

Since when is the determination of indigenous minhag (in this case of
Eretz Yisroel) made on the basis of opinions of non-natives, rather than
historic proofs or indigenous traditions ?

It seems that any such position might be less than 'iron-clad' to

Also, being that the standard (as cited by Ram"a, etc.) Ashkenazic
custom is to wear tefillin on chol haMoed, that might have bearing here
too, as I believe that scholars say that certain Ashkenazic customs are
derived from ancient Palestinian (Eretz Yisroel) ones (as opposed to
some Sepharadic ones being from Babylonia). So perhaps that could
indicate what possible ancient Palestinian custom was.

I have in fact heard that a certain godol encouraged an Ashkenaz minyan
in Eretz Yisroel to put on Tefillin publicly on chol haMoed there in
recent times. Although ultimately I believe they didn't (at least not to
date), nevertheless, that seems to indicate that the matter may not be
as simple as some think.



From: Rafi Stern <Rstern@...>
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 09:42:27 +0200 
Subject: Waiting for Kaddish

Our Shul (Ohel Yonah Menachem in Beit Shemesh) has a very stringent
regime with regards timekeeping and Kaddish (as both related and
unrelated subjects).

On the one hand we have punctual to-the-second timekeeping in starting
the Tefillah and on weekdays a well observed finishing time in order
that people generally don't have to drift out towards the end of
davening to go to work. On the subject of kaddish, there are only ever
two kaddishim (one Rabanan and one regular) at the end of Tefilah
regardless of how many Shir Shel Yom, Barachi Nafshi, Anim Zemirot
etc. are said.

If we do not have a minyan at the start of Tefillah we do wait a minute
or two but then go on in order not to cause a tirhah. This is the only
case where an extra Kaddish is then inserted between Shir Shel Yom and
Ein K'Eloheinu.

Rafi Stern


End of Volume 38 Issue 75