Volume 38 Number 76
                 Produced: Wed Mar  5  1:06:54 US/Eastern 2003

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Candles on Purim (2)
         [Baruch J. Schwartz, <chips@...>]
chalav yisroel / non-chalav yisroel oven use
         [Chaim G Steinmetz]
Eating before Davening
Kiddush Clubs - another twist
Kiddush Clubs and getting drunk
Kiddush Clubs or, Confessions of a Sometime Former Member
         [Bernard Raab]
Newport News, VA
         [Yisrael and Batya Medad]
Origin of Kidush clubs
         [Joseph Mosseri]
Rambam, Jews, and Boxing
         [Frank Silbermann]
Shabbos computer
         [Tzadik Vanderhoof]


From: Baruch J. Schwartz <schwrtz@...>
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 12:05:16 +0200
Subject: Candles on Purim

Irwin E. Weiss asks "how come we don't light candles for Purim?".

The (rabbinic) precept of shabbat and yomtov candles derives ultimately
from the sanctity of the day, while the (rabbinic) precept of Hanukkah
candles commemorates specific miracles which were first celebrated, by
the Maccabees themselves, by the lighting of lamps. Purim does not have
the sanctity of yomtov, nor did the miracles it commemorates having to
do with lamps.

Still, the original celebration of the victory may have included lights,
if Esther 8:16 (layeduim haytah orah etc.) is taken literally. But this
verse is generally used as a proof-text for the requirement to learn
some Torah at the beginning of the meal ("light" = Torah).

Actually the Mishnah Berura, in the name of "the aharonim", recommends
lighting candles (along with the wearing of Shabbat clothes, setting the
table and preparing beds) in advance of Erev Purim (OH 695:1
sub-paragraph 3 and BH) so that one comes into one's house after hearing
the megillah one finds it looking like Shabbat. He also cites the
opinions favoring lighting candles or torches at the daytime seudah as
well (ST), and the Kitzur Shulhan Arukh rules explicitly "one must also
light candles, as an expression of gladness, at the meal held in the
daytime" (142:5).

In our family we light two tall formal candles, placed on the table in
Shabbat candlesticks, for the duration of the Purim seudah. As for the
appropriate bracha, I recommended saying shehakol and drinking a revi`it
of schnapps.

Baruch Schwartz

From: <chips@...>
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 22:26:52 -0800
Subject: Re: Candles on Purim

If you mean why don't we have brochos for candles on Purim, then I think
it is a good question. But Purim Seudahs I've been to at frum family's
houses had lit candles, except for Fridays. Don't recall seeing lit
candles at Seudah's that took place in rented halls.



From: Chaim G Steinmetz <cgsteinmetz@...>
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 23:37:07 -0500
Subject: chalav yisroel / non-chalav yisroel oven use

See Igros Moshe YD v 2 # 31 (bottom 0f p 43), where he writes that those
that don't agree with his psak about Cholov Akum - have to kasher their

Chaim G. Steinmetz


From: <yitz99@...>
Date: Tue, 4 Mar 2003 14:50:47 +0200
Subject: Eating before Davening

>>From: Eitan Fiorino <tony.fiorino@...>
I'd add to this that while we are generally enjoined from 
eating before shacharit, a person may do so if he/she is 
unable to make it through davening without eating (e.g., 
kavanah disrupted because of hunger). <<

This sounds like the description of a 'choleh'.  If so, why shouldn't
such a person should make kiddush before davening?


From: Anonymous
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 07:40:00 EST
Subject: Kiddush Clubs - another twist

Rise Goldstein recently wrote:
<the "club phenomena" being decried in this thread probably contributes
at most a small amount to the problem of substance abuse>

but David Shabtai added:
<On a more societal note: children are also influenced by their
fathers' drinking habits at kiddush clubs - if it is OK to get drunk,
and the fathers' would argue - not really drunk, just a little tipsy -
during davening(!!!!!) - it is definitely OK to do so, and perhaps get
even more drunk (ignoring the rule of dayo...) at other times.  Again,
this is a real problem, not my imagination - I have seen this, heard
this and continue to see it all the time.>

Here's another twist to the kiddush club phenomenon: I just came back
from a "family Shabbaton" at my son's college, run by the college's
Hillel. On Friday night, Hillel has a communal Shabbat dinner, open to
the entire Jewish community (but under Orthodox hashgacha/auspices),
which attracts 150-200 kids. IMHO, it's a real kiddush Hashem to see
otherwise nonobservant kids come out for a Shabbat dinner, hear kiddush,
wash and say birkat hamazon, at the very least. That's the good part.

After dinner, many of us went to the college's Chabad house, where other
kids "hang out." Chabad also has a Shabbat dinner, where, unfortunately,
the wine/beer/other spirits flow all too freely. The kids were telling
me - and I heard this from enough of them to believe it - that the rabbi
has a reputation for getting drunk every week, and inviting the kids to
join him.  The ones who told me this say that although he's doing it in
the name of "kiruv," many of the kids who go to his "farbrengen" do so
not for any Yiddishkeit purposes, but merely to imbibe freely (and many,
if not most, are under age). My "roommate" at this Shabbaton told me
that a relative of hers had been a regular at these gatherings and had
developed into a full-blown alcoholic, requiring detox and rehab.

My question is, what can be done about this?? It's obviously a serious
problem. I have been told that other Chabad rabbis in the area have been
informed about this but don't seem to be taking any action (a la the OU
and Baruch Lanner?).


From: <chips@...>
Date: Sun, 2 Mar 2003 22:34:49 -0800
Subject: Re: Kiddush Clubs and getting drunk

> From: David Yehuda Shabtai <dys6@...>
> A couple of notes about the Kiddush club thread:
> Furthermore, the impact on children is quite large - perhaps more than
> most adults realize - and this on two levels:
> 1.  Children see that their fathers cannot sit through the entire
> davening without getting drunk - this is a very serious problem as
> Shabbat is one of the only times for most people when the whole family
> davens together.  

You need to find a different place to daven. I am over 40 years old and
never saw or heard anyone get drunk from the drinking at a 'Kiddush
Club' or a regular kiddush. And I've been to an extremely wide variety
of Shuls. Simchat Torah is the only exception and when I saw it I simply



From: Bernard Raab <beraab@...>
Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 18:02:20 -0500
Subject: Kiddush Clubs or, Confessions of a Sometime Former Member

I have NEVER heard of a kiddush club at a minyan that does not feature a
Rabbi's sermon. Have you? Once that connection is recognized, any number
of remedies suggest themselves. (Note: I am NOT suggesting a causal
relationship, just a co-dependent one.)

To "break the back" of a well-entrenched kc habit, the Rabbi might
inform the Board that he will suspend sermons or limit them to one a
month.  Alternatively, he can limit his drosho to a strict 5
minutes. Believe me, it is possible to get across a key idea in 5
minutes, frequently with more impact. The kiddush clubbers are just
getting warmed up before they would have to return for Musaf.

The remedy I like the best is for the Rabbi to give his sermon after
Musaf and just before Adon Olam. The clubbers will return to find that
they have missed Musaf, but NOT the Rabbi's sermon! The rabbi can
announce that he is changing the schedule so that no one need feel that
he is being held hostage by the Rabbi in order to daven b'tzibur (pray
with a minyan) or to say kaddish.

Lest you feel that this is a wild untried idea, be assured that this was
the standard mode at Young Israel of West Hempstead for many years when
the late Rabbi Harold Kanotopsky ztl was the morah d'asrah (1960's).

I never saw anyone walk out before the sermon. Of course, it helped that
you could usually count on a thought-provoking and sometimes blockbuster
sermon.  In the latter event it was wonderful that we could discuss the
sermon amongst ourselves almost immediately without upsetting the
service. And be assured that the announcements could follow Adon Olam
very nicely. It actually ends the service very nicely and keeps people
in their seats until after the announcements which many consider the
most important part of the service!


From: Yisrael and Batya Medad <ybmedad@...>
Date: Tue, 04 Mar 2003 07:32:14 +0200
Subject: Newport News, VA

My sister and family just moved to Newport News, VA.  Does anyone have
any contacts there?  She's not religious and strictly orthodox would be
awkward.  They have two elementary school-aged kids who went to a Jewish
Sunday school in AZ.  She's a professional photographer, impressive
portfolio, prizes, exhibited etc.  (OK, I'm her big sister.) Any
information appreciated; I'll pass it on.




From: Joseph Mosseri <joseph.mosseri@...>
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 08:55:56 -0500
Subject: Origin of Kidush clubs

For the last few weeks I've been reading about this "Kidush Clubs".
When and where did they start?
In the Sephardic world that I have been born and raised in, no such concept
The only thing we do have is that most permit having a sucking candy or two
during qeriat sefer hatorah, without having qidoush, because it is
considered te'imah and not akhilah.
Can anyone tell me the origins of the "Kidush club"?

Joseph Mosseri


From: Frank Silbermann <fs@...>
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 17:54:52 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Rambam, Jews, and Boxing

Josh Backon (V38 N73):
> If two Jews decide to enter into the boxing ring and one is injured,
> the one who is injured isn't entitled to compensation. See: Shulchan Aruch
> Choshen Mishpat 421:5. As the Aruch haShulchan there (CM 421 #3)
> indicates "shenitavku yachad birtzonam" (it was of their own free will)
> and they both forgive each other ("u'machalu zeh la'zeh"). The same
> would be in effect for the martial arts.

As a curiosity, I would mention that in the late 1700s an English Jew of
Portuguese descent named Daniel Mendoza invented what was called
"scientific boxing." Previously, boxers were untutored brawlers and
sluggers; Mendoza created a system of attack and defense that made
boxing into a modern sport.  He was champion in England for some years.
(He was also a proud Jew said to be able to speak Hebrew.)

Don B. Kates mentions him in "The Second Amendment and the Ideology of
Self-Protection" (I don't remember where it was published but a web
search will find it):

	"Even more outlandish to modern eyes is the explanation which
	the early English liberal Francis Pace gave of how hatred and
	violence against the Jews were erased in 18th Century England:

		`Dogs could not be used in the streets in the manner
		many Jews were treated.  One circumstance among others
		put an end to the ill-usage of the Jews.  About the year
		1787 Daniel Mendoza, a Jew, became a celebrated boxer
		and set up a school to teach the art of boxing as a
		science.  The art soon spread among young Jews and they
		became generally expert at it.  The consequence was in
		a very few years seen and felt too.  It was no longer
		safe to insult a Jew unless he was and old man and alone.
		But even if the Jews were unable to defend themselves,
		the few who would not be disposed to sunult them merely
		because they are Jews, would be in danger of chastisement
		from the passers-by and of punishment from the police.'"

	(Kates cites:  F. Place, _Improvement of the Working Classes_,
	1834 as quoted in R. Webb, _Modern England:  From the 18th Century
	to the Present_, 115, n. 14, 1970.)

Frank Silbermann
New Orleans, Lousiana


From: Tzadik Vanderhoof <tzadikv@...>
Subject: Shabbos computer

What do you all have to say about the following scenario?  Before
Shabbos, someone who has broadband Internet service (i.e. it does not
tie up the phone line) could browse to a "news" site (e.g. cnn.com) that
happens to automatically refresh itself every once in a while.  They
could also turn off their screen saver (or leave it off if they never
use one anyway).  As a result, during Shabbos, they could, from time to
time, look at the screen and see if any earth-shattering news stories
happen on Shabbos.

At first glance, this would seem to be "more permissible" than leaving a
TV or radio on, from the standpoint of "maras ayin", because whereas the
sight of someone watching a TV or listening to a radio on Shabbos may
cause an observer to assume that it was turned on recently (thus in
violation of Shabbos), seeing someone looking at a computer screen would
not cause them to assume that the computer was turned on recently,
because many people leave their computers on for long periods or even
leave them on all the time.  Also, if the person looking at the screen
is standing up, it does not appear that they are "using the
computer". In addition, wheras a TV or radio makes noise, the computer
is silent.


End of Volume 38 Issue 76