Volume 38 Number 86
                 Produced: Sun Mar 23 17:33:23 US/Eastern 2003

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Burial of Limbs (3)
         [Gilad J. Gevaryahu, Josh Backon, Yisrael and Batya Medad]
Halachick Reflections on Singles Groups
         [Moshe Pessin]
Jewish community in the Netherlands?
         [Eliezer Wenger]
Living will and halachah
         [Moshe Bach]
Mizmor Shir Twice in Prague
         [David E Cohen]
Learning From Non-Jews
         [Daniel Wells]
sermons, kiddush, captives
         [Menashe Elyashiv]
Sof Zeman
         [Menashe Elyashiv]
Tircha d'Tsibura (2)
         [Meir Possenheimer, Avi Feldblum]


From: <Gevaryahu@...> (Gilad J. Gevaryahu)
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 09:57:04 EST
Subject: Burial of Limbs

David Fox (v38n82) writes about the custom/law of burying amputated

<<When I was a kid I was told that the/a reason for limb burial (with the
body) and against autopsy is that when the messiah comes one would need
to stand up (facing East) and walk to Jerusalem. This would of course be
difficult if one were missing limbs or other vital pieces.>>

Chazal were very much aware of the decomposing process and stated so
explicitly. According to them there is the little bone left after the
person dies and the body decomposed. Its name is sometimes called
"Niskhoy" (Nun, Samekh, Kaf, Vav, Yod) and sometimes "Looz" (Lamed, Vav,
Zayin). None of my Hebrew or Aramaic dictionaries has the word
"Niskhoy."  According to some, "Looz" is the upper most skeletal
vertebrae. (Gen.  Rab. 28).

This "Niskhoy" is being fed only from se'udat melave malka and not from
any other meals.

The reasons for not allowing a hanged body to stay overnight (Devarim
21:23) and Rashbam explanation (id.) of the reasons as issues to do with
impurities to the land, have bearing on the question, and in my view,
the burial of body parts have also to do with "respect" to the deceased
and "respect" to God who created the body.

Gilad J. Gevaryahu

From: <BACKON@...> (Josh Backon)
Date: Wed,  19 Mar 2003 14:22 +0200
Subject: Re: Burial of Limbs

There are three opinions whether an amputated limb requires KEVURA (burial):
1)Shvut Yaakov 101: no requirement
2) Noda B'Yehuda Mahadura Tinyana YD 209, Melamed l'Ho'il YD 118, Kol Bo
Aveilut p. 184, Gesher haChayim I Ch. 16 Siman 2:2, Yabia Omer III YD 22:
no requirement regarding KEVURA; the only reason why the limb is buried
is to prevent TUMAH.
3) Iggrot Moshe YD I 232: any limb which has bone or ligaments requires
KEVURA; any visceral organ (kidneys, spleen, etc.) doesn't. [This is also
the view of the Tzitz Eliezer X 25:8].

Josh Backon

From: Yisrael and Batya Medad <ybmedad@...>
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 19:24:18 +0200
Subject: Burial of Limbs

One of my cousins says that our grandmother used to tell her that as a
child she loved to play with the bones of her grandfather's hand.  They
were stored in a box in her home (Rogochov, Belarusia).  It's a strange
story, because I also thought that limbs were buried.  I tried to check
it out with various rabbis, and all we could guess was that maybe he
moved to another location some time after losing (poor word--hate those
euphemisms) the hand, and therefore took it along for joint burial.



From: Moshe Pessin <mypessin@...>
Date: Thu, 13 Feb 2003 12:01:41 +0200
Subject: Re: Halachick Reflections on Singles Groups

    The shulchan aruch at the end of hilchos Yom Tov states that bais din
used to set up guards to prevent mingling of genders on yom tov. the great
"tikan Gadol" mentioned in the mishna in meshetas sukka was a balcony, this
was done because same floor separation had proved inadequate to prevent the
mingling. even the sridei eish who permits mixed youth groups says that
really the chareidim are right except the times mandate the mixed approach
(a point contested by other poskim) and he states that the groups must be
regulated to insure no unnecessary mingling. also r' aviner in his teshuvos
says that benay akiva should ideally be separate. all this would show that
the mingling is highly halachikly problamatic so to suggest that the
boundries should be loosened is wrong. especially in todays permissive
society we should be doubly on gaurd. as for shidduchim, we can daven.


From: Eliezer Wenger <ewenger@...>
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 07:31:19 -0500
Subject: Re: Jewish community in the Netherlands?

Regarding the inquiry posed by Elanit Rothschild regarding Jewish
communities in Netherlands. There are Chabad Shluchim in the following
cities of the Netherlands: Almere, Amersfoort, Amstelveen-Amsterdam,
Haarlem, Maastricht, Rotterdam, The Hague, and Utrecht. If you are
interested in any of their names, addresses, phone # or email addresses,
please email me and I will supply you with the info.

Eliezer Wenger


From: Moshe Bach <moshe.bach@...>
Date: Sat, 22 Mar 2003 21:17:18 +0200
Subject: Re: Living will and halachah

	From: Paul Ginsburg <GinsburgP@...>
	Are there any halachic considerations to take into account
	when putting together a will or living will?

There most certainly ARE serious halachic considerations to take into
account for a living will.  These are matters dealing literally with a
person's life and death.  Make sure you consult a competent halachic
authority and do not rely on the doctors.

I am not a lawyer or doctor, but here is my understanding:

A living will is a statement signed, typically, by a gravely ill person
in a terminal situation or close family that specifies when a doctor or
hospital can "pull the plug" on a terminally ill person and, thus, let
them die a "humane" death.  From the doctors'/hospital viewpoint, they
want to avoid Karen Quilan-like cases where a patient is on life-support
for many years with no chance to recover and conduct a "meaningful

My experience in this matter: My mother A"H was hospitalized a few years
ago and put on a respirator.  I flew in from Israel and was confronted
by the doctors about the need to set up a living will.  I consulted with
a Rabbi who is considered one of the prominent biomedical-ethical people
in the field.  From what I understood, once my mother was on the
respirator, taking her off the respirator would shorten her life and be
tantamount to murder.  (He said it would have been better if she had not
been put on the respirator to begin with.)  In consultation with a
doctor (a friend of the family) and the Rabbi, we wrote a document that
specified that the hospital should not take my mother off the respirator
and should not make extraordinary efforts to prolong her life.  Change
of shift.  The next morning, the doctors informed me that my mother was
brain dead, and they wanted to take her off the respirator.  They
exerted a lot of psychological pressure, and it took no small amount of
effort to convince them to go through with the original plan.  Later in
the day, they gave my mother atrophine (the same stuff in the Israeli
gas mask box) to stimulate her heart.  I didn't understand this in light
of the decision not to resuscitate but was not in an emotional state to
fight, as the end was clearly near.  She died later that night.

I talked to several Rabbis and religious doctors about these events.
They suggested that there are more lenient opinions than the one I was
given.  My conclusion: Do your homework early and up front.  Consult the
highest rabbinic authorities on this matter.  Choose a Rabbi and stick
with him.  And may we only experience happy events in hospitals (babies
are nice).

maury (moshe) bach
(+972) 4-865-5845, inet 8-465-5845
<mbach@...>, moshe.bach@intel.com


From: David E Cohen <ddcohen@...>
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 12:07:13 -0500
Subject: Re: Mizmor Shir Twice in Prague

Following up on the discussion from a couple of months ago, I found the
following article by R' Yitzchak Etshalom, which discusses the custom at
the Altneuschul in Prague.




From: Daniel Wells <wells@...>
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 12:55:44 +0200 (IST)
Subject: RE Learning From Non-Jews

> besides the matter of the prohibition of teaching non-Jews Torah, is it
> possible to learn from what non-Jews have been taught of the Torah

If a non-Jew honors the Almighty in a particular manner that is also
befitting a Jew, then surely that Jew is required to do likewise whether
the goy learned it from the Torah or other sources.

Thus if you see a non-Jew who is extra careful not to speak Lashon Hara,
of course you should try and copy his carefulness.

> and to view them as role models

a role model means that in everything they do they are superior. So
unless the non-Jew happens to be a Talmid Chacham (which in itself is an
oxymoron) I don't think that you have to see them as role models.



From: Menashe Elyashiv <elyashm@...>
Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 15:06:42 +0200 (IST)
Subject: sermons, kiddush, captives

Although I never have heard or seen a Kiddush club, I do feel sorry for
all those who are stuck in a long Shabbat prayer. I once heard a Rabbi
say that he does not speak until after Kiddush because he knows that
most people are not listining.

In Israel, the Yeshiva type places have a derashe between Kabbalat
Shabbat & Arvit. One should take a look of what is going on: some people
talk outside, some read the parasht shavua pages, some take a nap, and
some really listen. Most darshanim seem not to know when to finish. I
have spoken to the powers in rule countless times to shorten the sermons
but to no avail. I quoted my father shlita that if you cannot make the
point in 5 minutes, then even a half an hour is not enougth...

I found the solution - we have a hallway Arvit after Kabbalat Shabbat
right at sunset, no more being a captive...

BTW, we do have Kiddush, after the early minyan, no hard drinks, just
wine and burekus and an informal shiur.


From: Menashe Elyashiv <elyashm@...>
Date: Thu, 20 Mar 2003 16:46:07 +0200 (IST)
Subject: Sof Zeman

In general, the Yeshivot and Yeshivot types, Yerushalmi, and others hold
by the Magan Avraham earlier sof zeman. While trying to convince our 2nd
minyan to start a few minutes earlier in order to finish by Magan
avraham time, I came across an article on R. Yehuda Sadka, the Rosh
Yeshiva of Porat Yosef, he was very careful on saying Shema on time. He
would say that it is like someone that comes home to have dinner, and
his wife apologizes that the soup is not ready yet, so he should eat the
main dish first and then eat the soup. If this happens one time, ok, but
if it happens all the time....If one day you got up late and say Shema
before Shaharit, ok, but to make a habit of it is not proper. He and
others hold that a talmid hacham and a yere shemaim shold hold by the
Magen Avraham time.

In pre-dst(daylight saving), it has quite hard - 7:10 in June, meaning
starting on Shabbat about 6:20, (guess when vatikin started - 3:50!),
OTOH, even the Gra time was early - 8:10, so the regular Shabbat 8:00
minyanim did not say Shema on time. In our dst era, 8:00 is usually ok
for Gra time or 7:15 for M.A. time


From: Meir Possenheimer <meir@...>
Date: Thu, 6 Mar 2003 01:06:17 -0000
Subject: Tircha d'Tsibura

This past Shabbos being Parashas Shekolim, an additional Sefer Torah was
used for Maftir, this despite the fact that, this year at least, the
Parashah from which Maftir is taken, Parashas Ki Siso, is only one
Parashah away from the weekly Parasha, Vayakhel. However, because of
Tircha d'Tsibura, i.e. so as not to inconvenience the congregation by
having to wait for the first Sefer Torah to be rolled back, the second
Sefer is used.  Indeed, we find other examples of measures taken to
avoid inconveniencing the congregation.

My point is this, and I feel this a fertile ground for discussion, if
for the sake of the minute or two it would take to roll the Sefer Torah
back, we are instructed to take out a second one, how, then, can the
Rabbis of many, if not all Shuls, justify haviing the Tsibur wait for
them to finish Shema and the Amidah, which at least on days when Musaf
is davenned can take perhaps five to ten minutes in all?

I look forward to your comments,

From: Avi Feldblum <mljewish@...>
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 17:16:22 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Tircha d'Tsibura

On Thu, 6 Mar 2003, Meir Possenheimer wrote:

> My point is this, and I feel this a fertile ground for discussion, if for
> the sake of the minute or two it would take to roll the Sefer Torah back, we
> are instructed to take out a second one, how, then, can the Rabbis of many,
> if not all Shuls, justify haviing the Tsibur wait for them to finish Shema and
> the Amidah, which at least on days when Musaf is davenned can take perhaps
> five to ten minutes in all?

I am definitely one who is sensitive to the issue of Tirche De'Tsibura,
and as such do not agree with the custom to make long 'Mi Sheberach's'
following one's Aliyah on Shabbat. However, I have to disagree with Meir
on the two points above. Maybe it is related the Rabbi's in the shuls we
each have been at, but as I see it, it is the Rabbi's job to set the pace
of davening, in particular Shema and Shemona Esrah. Thus I do not see it
as a 'Tirche' that the Tsibur needs to wait for them, but rather a lesson
for the Tsibur what pace they should allow their davening to take.

Avi Feldblum


End of Volume 38 Issue 86