Volume 38 Number 87
                 Produced: Mon Mar 24  6:19:32 US/Eastern 2003

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Diversity in Orthodoxy (2)
         [Michael Kahn, Avi Feldblum]
"feminists"--Gemara for women
         [Leah S. Gordon]
insulting Torah Judaism
         [Mordechai Horowitz]
Kiddush club
         [Eliezer Wenger]
Kiddush Clubs (2)
         [Bernard Raab, Avi Feldblum]
kiddush clubs - another twist
Modern Orthodoxy
         [Yona Goodman]
Shabbos Computer
         [Beth and David Cohen]
Singles and Orthodox Community
Tircha D'tzibura
         [Ira Bauman]


From: Michael Kahn <mi_kahn@...>
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 14:22:56 -0500
Subject: Re: Diversity in Orthodoxy

>That there is diversity in orthodoxy is a strength and not a
>weakness. Forcing everyone to adhere to one opinion is not orthodoxy >and
>never was (at least until recently).

This is not true! There was a machlokes in the Mishna regarding the proper 
date of Yom Kippur and one tana forced the other tana to follow his opinion. 
(One tana forced the second tana to violate the sanctaty of the day the 
second tana felt was Yom Kippur.)

If anything history illistrates the oposite. Before Hillel and Shamai there 
was no such thing as hallachik dissent! The Sanhedrin decided everything. It 
was only when certain hallachos were unresolved in Hillel and Shamais time, 
with Hillel being the Nasi and Shamai being the Av beis Din that machlokes 
in hallacha became part and parcell of Hallacha.

From: Avi Feldblum <mljewish@...>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 05:57:30 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Diversity in Orthodoxy

On Sun, 23 Mar 2003, Michael Kahn wrote:

> >That there is diversity in orthodoxy is a strength and not a
> >weakness. Forcing everyone to adhere to one opinion is not orthodoxy and
> >never was (at least until recently).

> This is not true! There was a machlokes in the Mishna regarding the proper
> date of Yom Kippur and one tana forced the other tana to follow his opinion.
> (One tana forced the second tana to violate the sanctaty of the day the
> second tana felt was Yom Kippur.)

Understanding what the above mentioned incident is all about is in my
opinion likely to be fundimental to understanding the differences between
those who advocate a diversity in thought and even action within the
bounds of established halacha and those who advocate that there is only
one correct thought and one correct action.

Avi Feldblum


From: Leah S. Gordon <leah@...>
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 17:56:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: "feminists"--Gemara for women

Mr. Moshe Pessin writes:

"5)women learning gemmara is one out of more then 30,000 sifim in shulchan
aruch, why then is it shuch an issue? the answer is as r' moshe writes in
his teshuvos the feminists are rebelling against H' and His Torah. R'
herschel shacter brings this in his sefer b'ikvai tzon telech."

I have rarely read as silly (not to mention offensive) an argument as
this one.  Surely any woman who would strive to learn Gemara, in the
face of tremendous intellectual and political challenges, is a bat-Torah
of the highest degree.  I dare say that a person who wanted to rebel
against Gd and Torah could find a more rebellious path than serious

How peculiar that the desire to study Gemara, is viewed as a great thing
in men, but as a sign of evil rebellion in women?

Surely someone who has a legitimate position against a practice could
come up with something better than, "those scary feminists are
rebelling".  I think it has been passe for at least 20 years to do

--Leah S. (Reingold) Gordon


From: Mordechai Horowitz <mordechai@...>
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 20:30:25 -0500
Subject: insulting Torah Judaism

>3)as for it being out of the pale of orthodoxy, when something violates the
>shulchan aruch then it is out of the pale, which this does.

As any Jew who has learned Shulhan Aruch on the inside knows we do not
only follow the Shulhan Aruch.  Indeed my wife is learning MB hilchos
shabbos, and is amazed but how much of it is not practical halacha.

Outside of the haredi community gedolim following the Rav Z"L support
women learning Gemorrah.  To show disrespect to them by reading them out
of the Torah world is apikorsus.

Imagine the reaction of haredi listmembers if someone pointing out that
for thousands of years halachic literature prohibited the modern
institution of lifetime Kollel.  After all it is clearly probibited to
live of Torah learning.


From: Eliezer Wenger <ewenger@...>
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 07:19:01 -0500
Subject: Re: Kiddush club

Much has been said about fasting on Shabbos morning vis a vis eating
before davening, and mention has been made about Chabad having some cake
and coffee before davening on Shabbos. The basis for this is what is
recorded in Hayom Yom 10 Shevat "When my (referring to the Previous
Rebbe, Rabbi Y.Y.  Schneerson) grandmother, Rebetzin Rivka was eighteen
(in 5611, 1851) she fell ill and the physician ordered her to eat
immediately upon awakening.  She, however, did not wish to eat before
davening, so she davened very early, then ate breakfast. When her
father-in-law, the Tzemach Tzedek, learned of this he said to her: "A
Jew must be healthy and strong. The Torah says about mitzvot, 'Live in
them,' meaning bring vitality into the mitzvot.  To be able to infuse
mitzvot with vitality, one must be strong and joyful."  Then he
concluded: "You should not be without food. Better to eat for the sake
of davening rather than to daven for the sake of eating;" he then
blessed her with long life. [She was born in 5593(1833) and passed away
on Sh'vat 10, 5674 (1914)]

My father (the Rebbe Rashab, Rabbi Sholom DovBer) told this teaching of
the Tzemach Tzedek to someone at yechidus, adding: "And this must be
done with joy."

In other words, if one's mind during davening will be concentrated on
the clock, or hungary stomach and not be able to concentrate on his
davening properly, it is better for him to eat something before
davening, so that his eating will be for the sake of davening, rather
thr reverse, where his davening will be for the sake of finishing and
getting to eat.


From: Bernard Raab <beraab@...>
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 12:28:23 -0500
Subject: Re: Kiddush Clubs

From: <chips@...>
>> From: Bernard Raab <beraab@...>
>> I have NEVER heard of a kiddush club at a minyan that does not feature 
>> a Rabbi's sermon. Have you?

>Umm, yes. Small shul in Balitmore during the 70s had no speeches or
>sermons (or official rabbi). On Willis Ave , I think. I'm probably
>spelling it wrong here - Hertzberg's.

Let's redefine terms here: A "kiddush club", as accepted in this
discussion, is one which typically meets during the haftorah reading,
and generally proceeds through the Rabbi's sermon; NOT one which meets
after davening. Was that the case in the Baltimore shul?

From: Avi Feldblum <mljewish@...>
Date: Mon, 24 Mar 2003 05:45:37 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: Kiddush Clubs

On Wed, 19 Mar 2003, Bernard Raab wrote:

> I have NEVER heard of a kiddush club at a minyan that does not >>feature
> a Rabbi's sermon. Have you?

I guess that my question would be what function do you see the Rabbi's
sermon playing is the motivation for the Kiddush club. For example, here
in Allentown, the Rabbi speaks after Musaf, not before Musaf. The
Kiddush club here is fairly quick, as they leave after the Haftorah is
completed, and are back before it is put away. I did overhear a unique
(to me at least) reason for the kiddush club that one member told his
young son - that once the time for kiddush comes following shacharit,
they do not want to delay before doing the mitzvah. I have to admit that
was an interesting (even if I think totally incorrect) take on the

Avi Feldblum


From: <WengerEdit@...>
Date: Wed, 19 Mar 2003 10:21:53 EST
Subject: Re: kiddush clubs - another twist

I forwarded this thread to my son, who's a college student very involved
with the campus Jewish community. Here is his response:


The question is not "can one become an alcoholic at Chabad" or any other
campus organization, because it's true, a student does have many other
sources of alcohol on campus. The question is, "is it any consolation
for them to say that they supply alcohol as a method of Kiruv?" If
they're going to drink anyway, it might as well be here, right?

Nevertheless, I think most would agree that no, it is not ok for a
campus organization to be distributing alcohol to those underage. They
should be setting the example for the students and specifically limiting
them to grape juice/low-alcohol wine for Kiddush. A student who has
L'Chaims is just as likely to go to the frat party after dinner as one
who doesn't, and if you're entering the party with alcohol in you
already, it'll be that much quicker that you'll be passed out on the
couch, or worse.

It should also be noted that for some, especially those who are not on
the party scene and would therefore not be likely to drink, are very
open to the free offerings at Shabbat dinner; if they won't be getting
any from a party, or even if they aren't interested in hard drinking,
who would turn down an offer for something free?

The best way to stay from a student's perspective: refuse alcohol
altogether. But that's easy for me to say because I do.

P.S. I hope someone has made it clear that when the name "Chabad" is
used in the alcohol context, it should not be taken as a blanket
statement of national Chabad; rather, only certain Chabad houses who
encourage this sort of activity. The is NOT universal Chabad.


From: Yona Goodman <yonahg@...>
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 23:10:09 +0200
Subject: Modern Orthodoxy

I am interested in hearing people's thoughts about the main values of M.

In Israel we have Religious Zionism. In what way are the two different?


[I will let this thread develop as long as I see that the responses are
productive. If this turns into a bash MO or bash Charedi, I will reject
those postings and if necessary terminate the thread. But I think it has
been some time since we may have last addressed the general topic, so I
have decided to let it enter the discussion again. Mod.]


From: Beth and David Cohen <bdcohen@...>
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 15:05:49 -0500
Subject: Shabbos Computer

Carl Singer in his post in #38 wrote: 
"Among other things, this could be in private so the issue of Maras Ayin
is questionable."

Just to clarify if an activity is forbidden because of Marit Ayin, it is
forbidden universally no matter where you are, or as the Gemara in Beitza
puts it "even in your innermost room (chadrei chadorim)". 

David I. Cohen

[As a quick note, this was a line that I had agreed with Carl would be
removed from the post and I failed on doing the edit when I sent it
out. Carl is not in disagreement with David on this point. Mod.]


From: Anonymous
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 17:52:16 -0500
Subject: Singles and Orthodox Community

Moshe Pessin writes, citing various halachic authorities which signify that
unnecessary intermingling of the genders should be avoided:

> all this would show that the mingling is highly halachikly problamatic
> so to suggest that the boundries should be loosened is
> wrong. especially in todays permissive society we should be doubly on
> gaurd.

I would just like to suggest that "especially in today's permissive
society" we should be doing all we can to ensure that unmarried people
who wish to be married have appropriate avenues through which to meet
their mates.  I do not think that anyone is seriously suggesting that
frum society should throw off all morals and all safeguards and permit
chaos and hormonal abandon.  But since it is extremely, painfully,
monumentally obvious that the shidduchim system (which for the vast
majority of people, younger and older but more and more so the older you
get, amounts to no more and no less than an extremely sleazy
blind-dating system) has left hundreds and hundreds of people out in the
cold, maybe something more needs to be done.

> as for shidduchim, we can daven.

Yes.  We can daven.  And we should daven.  As we do for all the things
we need.  But just as we don't cross the street with our eyes closed and
daven that we won't be hit by a car; just as the frum community has an
extensive network of medical advisory resources; so too the community
should avoid the position that when it comes to the many, many people
whose lives are quite literally being destroyed by this malfunctioning
system that we should "daven."  I do not know what the original poster's
personal situation is and I don't mean to attack him.  But I would like
to say publicly here that when someone has been in shidduchim for a
decade or more and gets told "have bitachon" it is amazingly insensitive
and downright patronizing.  If I did not have bitachon, I would no
longer be frum.  I know that sounds harsh, but it is reality.  Let's not
confuse our various responsibilities as frum Jews.  Davening is
essential.  But you don't meet your mate by davening in a room alone.


From: <Yisyis@...> (Ira Bauman)
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 18:20:12 EST
Subject: Re: Tircha D'tzibura

      This past Shabbos being Parashas Shekolim, an additional Sefer
      Torah was used for Maftir, this despite the fact that, this year
      at least, the Parashah from which Maftir is taken, Parashas Ki
      Siso, is only one Parashah away from the weekly Parasha,
      Vayakhel. However, because of Tircha d'Tsibura, i.e. so as not to
      inconvenience the congregation by having to wait for the first
      Sefer Torah to be rolled back, the second Sefer is used.

This is even more puzzling when you consider that replacing the torahs,
calling up a hagbahah and gelilah, possibly giving them misheberachs and
the subsequent hagbahah and gelilah take far longer than the 15 seconds a
competent gabbai will take to find parshas shekolim.

       Ira Bauman


End of Volume 38 Issue 87