Volume 40 Number 33
                 Produced: Wed Aug  6 11:15:53 US/Eastern 2003

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Live Web Broadcast of Tisha B'Av Kinot
         [David Olivestone]
The Rebbe and Language Usage
         [Russell J Hendel]
Sabbatical Salutations
         [Andy Levy-Stevenson]
         [Baruch J. Schwartz]
"Young Lion" Translations (9)
         [Ben Katz, David Feiler, David Ziants, Gilad J. Gevaryahu, Ari
Trachtenberg, David Olivestone, Ezriel Krumbein, Gilad J.
Gevaryahu, Warren Burstein]


From: David Olivestone <davido@...>
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 13:45:19 -0400 
Subject: Live Web Broadcast of Tisha B'Av Kinot

Live Web Broadcast - Tisha B'Av Kinot

Thursday, August 7, 9:15 AM - 1:15 PM (EDT)
With Rabbi Dr. Tzvi Hersh Weinreb, Executive Vice President, Orthodox

"Living and Reliving the Experience of Catastrophe"

If circumstances prevent you from being in your synagogue the entire
morning of Tisha b'Av (Thursday, August 7), join Rabbi Dr. Tzvi Hersh
Weinreb in a live web broadcast of Kinot with introductions and
explanations, beginning at 9:15 am (Eastern DST) and until 1:15 pm. Even
at home or at work, log on to www.ou.org at any time during the morning
to enhance and deepen your understanding of the meaning of Tisha B'Av.

Live webcast will originate from Congregation Shomrei Emunah, Baltimore,

Sponsored l'ilui nishmat Chaim Yeshayahu ben Yosef, a"h

Log on to www.ou.org
For more information, call 212-613-8126

If you experience any difficulty receiving the webcast, please call
212-613-8118 during webcast hours.

Please share this with people in your community.

David Olivestone


From: Russell J Hendel <rjhendel@...>
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 22:42:25 -0400
Subject: RE: The Rebbe and Language Usage

v40n28 Bill Bernstein comments on Shachters posting on connotation and
denotation(v40#23). This relates to the whole Rebbe issue first objected
to by Jonathan Chippman. Allow me to make 2 1/2 clarifying points here.

First: I think Shachters posting can be more succinctly summarized by
stating that LANGUAGE MUST BE UNDERSTOOD IN CONTEXT--for example the 8th
commandment THOU SHALL NOT STEAL refers to kidnapping because it is
given in a context of other capital crimes. If you carefully look at all
examples in his posting you see that all that is being said is that
context modifies meaning (one of the 13 principles of Rabbi Ishmael)

Second: I, like Jonathan Chipman am not Lubavitcher. However I have a
strong defense for arguing that the Rebbe does refer to the late Rabbi
Schneerson. Quite simply ALL sects of Judaism agree on the importance of
Talmud Torah (learning).  The Lubavitcher Rebbe is unique in that he set
up way over 1000 schools during his tenure as Rebbe. True they are
Lubavitcher schools but no other Rebbe has come even close to creating
1000 day schools for his movement. Therefore since Education is a
universally acknowledged goal and since the Lubavitcher Rebbe
distinguished himself in education I see nothing wrong with calling him
the Rebbe.

Indeed by calling him the Rebbe we are affirming to ourselves the
importance of Education We are helping and motivating ourselves not

Finally: with regard to Avi's statement (that since Jonathans posting I
have begun explaining that the Rav refers to Rabbi Joseph B
Soloveitchick), first, if you examine the archives you will find that I
have always done this.

And the reason is because of the mail-jewish Requirement to carefully
explain any Hebrew terms used SINCE NON_KNOWLEDGEABLE people frequently
read on this list. As a matter of Netiquette I try to carefully explain
any term no matter how obvious. That includes such terms as TNACH(Bible)
SA (Code of Jewish law), Rishonim (The early legal authorities)
etc. Some of these terms are so entrenched in our vocabulary that we
sometimes have difficulty in translating them.

Russell Jay Hendel http://www.RashiYomi.com/


From: Andy Levy-Stevenson <andy@...>
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 10:04:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: RE: Sabbatical Salutations

> [ ... I will allow Carl's posting here, along with this comment, to
> publically state that in many / most locations, Shabbat Shalom is likely
> an acceptable greeting within the Orthodox Jewish community. Mod.] 

For some years I've tended to say Shabbat Shalom rather than Gut
Shabbos. My rationale is that while neither is in my native (and
therefore the most natural) language of English, I aspire to speak
Hebrew fluently, while that's not true in regard to Yiddish.

Here in the Twin Cities it tends to be a point of distinction between
the two Orthodox shuls; one chareidi, and one modern orthodox. It's not
an absolute distinction; while some in the MO shul will say "Gut
Shabbos," almost no one in the chareidi shul will use "Shabbat Shalom".

One funny note. A visiting Israeli family has an eleven year old boy who
delights in his new-found command of English and thus says "Gut Shabbos"
with gusto! After all, that's what you say in English!

Andy Levy-Stevenson
Learn about the Minneapolis Hebrew Conversation group:


From: Baruch J. Schwartz <schwrtz@...>
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 07:22:34 +0200
Subject: Thanskgiving

I would be interested in any published teshuvot anyone may have seen
specifically treating the question of the participation of avelim
(during the year for parents, during the sheloshim for other relatives)
in American Thanksgiving Day dinners. Obviously only modern, American
posekim would have referred to this; I would be interested in knowing
whether anyone has argued for or against the possibility that it might,
say, be similar to a feast during Hanukkah--about which halachic opinion
exists--or the like.

While I recognize everyone's right to post whatever the moderator
allows, I personally am interested only in exact references to
published, documented teshuvot.



From: Ben Katz <bkatz@...>
Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 18:51:36 -0500
Subject: Re: "Young Lion" Translations

>From: Ari Trachtenberg <trachten@...>
>A friend recently showed me an interesting translation in the NCSY
>bencher.  In the last paragraph of birkhat hamazon, the phrase "k'firim
>rashu vra'evu vdorshey h' lo ichseru kol tov" is translated "Even young
>lions suffer want and hunger, but those who seek the Lord will not lack
>any good thing."
>Now, it is true that one translation of "k'fir" is a young lion, but
>isn't a more straightforward, if less politically correct, translation
>from the word kofer (i.e. one who doesn't believe in G-d): "unbelievers
>become poor and hungry, but those who seek the Lord will not lack all

         No.  The plural of kofer would be kofrim.  I am not even sure
that the word kofer as a nonbeliever is Biblical.  The sense of the
pasuk is that even a young (strong) lion may go hungry, but not one who
trusts in God.

From: David Feiler <dfeiler@...>
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 21:36:24 -0400
Subject: "Young Lion" Translations

Concerning Ari Trachtenberg's question (MJ 40 #31) about the translation
of "k'firim" at the end of Birkat Haamazon.  I believe that the NCSY
translation as "young lions" is fully consistent with the majority of
translations of this pasuk.  There may be a remote etymological
connection between "k'fir" and "kofer" (denier of G-d's authority) but
the Even Shoshan Dictionary explicitly states that the word "k'fir" is
of unknown etymology.

However, in terms of drash we can make the connection.  This final
paragraph of Birkat Hamazon deals with bitachon (trust in G-d) and the
consequential promise of food and livelihood.  The pasuk "k'firim rashu
vra'evu vdorshey h' lo ichseru kol tov" is brought to highlight the
contrast.  This verse comes from Tehillim 34:11 where Rav S.R. Hirsch
clearly indicates that young lions are a metaphor for the wicked who rob
and steal somewhat akin to the feeding frenzy of a lion cub.  In fact
Tehillim 17:12 explicitly makes this comparison (also Tehillim 7:3).
Also Ibn Ezra on 34:11 explicitly relates "k'firim" to "kofrim"

So the Musar lesson is clear: those who trust in G-d will be rewarded
with livelihood; those who defy G-d by being "kofrim" and engage in a
feeding frenzy by robbing and stealing may appear to be strong like lion
cubs but they will end up "rashu vera'evu" thin and hungry.

David L Feiler
Syracuse, NY

From: David Ziants <dziants@...>
Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 23:38:21 +0300
Subject: Re: "Young Lion" Translations

Targum Yonatan translates k'firim as "b'ney aryvan" (= lion cubs), and
this is possibly the source for the bencher.

In my opinion, the pasuk itself (tehillim 34:11) wants to be
"politically correct", because although the subject of the pasuk is that
of types of people, it prefers to use one of the names for a lion - to
be interpreted - rather than have the word read and written
"kofrim". (Why here and not in other places is a different question.)

Da'at Mikra points out to tehillim 17:12 where the wicked and enemies
(see a few pesukim earlier) "is (pasuk in singular to indicate
collectivity) compared to an ariyeh (another word for lion) who desires
for its prey, and a k'fir that sits in hiding".  The pasuk here makes
very clear that a k'fir is an animal similar to an arieh and these
animals are used for comparison.

This explains the Ibn Ezra, who mentions the "kofrim b'ikar"
(=non-believers) interpretation, but thinks that it is more correct to
interprate this as referring to the Edomites.

I found out the above from my own research, and so would be very happy
to receive corrections if I misunderstood something.

David Ziants
Ma'aleh Adumim, Israel

From: <Gevaryahu@...> (Gilad J. Gevaryahu)
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 17:03:36 EDT
Subject: "Young Lion" Translations

Ari Trachtenberg (MJv40n31) suggested to translate Psalms 34:11
"kefirim" to be read "kofrim" that is "deniers" instead of "young
lions." Ari brought the translation from this verse in Birkat Hamazon by
NCSY bencher.

This is exactly what Ibn Ezra does, in the name of others, and even R.
Kittel brings this as a proposed reading although he has no MS to back
it up.

Gilad J. Gevaryahu

From: Ari Trachtenberg <trachten@...>
Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 22:13:03 -0400
Subject: Re: "Young Lion" Translations

What complicates the issue is that it's hard to understand how
"rashu" (grow poor) applies to young lions.  A lion may go hungry ...
but what makes one poor?

Kol tuv,

From: David Olivestone <dmlo@...>
Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 23:13:29 -0400
Subject: "Young Lion" Translations

Well, as the editor and translator of The NCSY Bencher I suppose I
should know. However, that was over twenty years (and over one million
copies) ago, so I can't be sure exactly what sources I may have looked
at then. However, taking a quick look around today, it seems to me that
Ari's suggestion that k'firim refers to "unbelievers" is the
"interesting" one, while "young lions" is the standard rendering. In
fact, "lions" or "young lions" is the translation used in all the other
versions I saw. The only perush I came across that links k'firim to the
idea of kofer is Ibn Ezra, but he then rejects that suggestion in favor
of the image of humans who devour like lions. Still, I must admit that
Ari's suggestion makes a lot of sense in terms of the parallelism within
the pasuk.

David Olivestone

From: Ezriel Krumbein <ezsurf@...>
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 23:15:37 -0700
Subject: Re: "Young Lion" Translations

This sentence originates in Psalms 34:11. The Artscroll Psalms quotes
the Ibn Ezra saying that some people translate it as unbelievers but the
Ibn Ezra says the more correct translation is young lions.  The Targum
in the Malbim Tanach also translates it as young lions.  The Metzudos
Dovid translates it as the great and wealthy.  The Ibn Ezra goes on to
say that some say it is referring to when Dovid Hamelech was captured by
Achish's men and starved by them.  Dovid was then saved miraculously by

Kol Tov

From: <Gevaryahu@...> (Gilad J. Gevaryahu)
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 09:36:35 EDT
Subject: "Young Lion" Translations

Ari Trachtenberg related that <<What complicates the issue is that it's
hard to understand how "rashu" (grow poor) applies to young lions.  A
lion may go hungry ...  but what makes one poor?>>

"Ani" and "Rash" are not only poor in classical Hebrew but also "in need
of protection." Thus one could easily translate that the young lions
were [both] in need of protection and were hungry. In nature both these
two functions are carried out by the mother lion.

Gilad J. Gevaryahu

From: Warren Burstein <warren@...>
Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2003 19:11:01 +0400
Subject: Re: "Young Lion" Translations

The source of the verse is Tehilim 34:11, the Targum there means "young
lions".  What is the source for the word meaning (as opposed to
Midrashically or poetically referring to) disbelievers?  Ibn Ezra and
Metzudat David interpret the word figuratively (each differently, and
Ibn Ezra mentions "disbelievers" but prefers a different
intrepretation), but neither say the word means something other than
"young lions" (and if the word meant, in a straighforward way,
"disbelievers", their interpretations would not be needed).


End of Volume 40 Issue 33