Volume 40 Number 46
                 Produced: Tue Aug 26 22:35:02 US/Eastern 2003

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Abstain from any Involvement with Half of this List
         [Saul Mashbaum]
Abstain from any Involvement with Women
         [Alex Heppenheimer]
Abstaining from Involvement with "Women" as "Other"
         [Leah S. Gordon]
Disappointment with Kosher Airline Food
         [Liz Muschel]
Kosher and Halal (2)
         [Alana Suskin, Keith Bierman]
Non-Kosher "Kosher" Airline Food
         [Dave Eckhardt]
Rentals in Wisconsin or Michigan
         [Shani Thon]
Wearing Tefillin while Driving? (8)
         [Shraga Rubin, Harry Weiss, Jack Gross, Perets Mett, Ezriel,
Zev Sero, Daniel Wildman, Barry S Bank]


From: Saul Mashbaum <smash52@...>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 23:33:08 +0300
Subject: Re: Abstain from any Involvement with Half of this List

I once mentioned to a friend that I participate in a email discussion
group for Orthodox people called mail-Jewish.

Puzzled by the name, he asked what was it about the list that made it
appropriate only for men.

Puzzled in turn, I assured him that the list is open to men and women

"Then why is it called male Jewish?" he asked.

Homonyms can be tricky.

Saul Mashbaum


From: Alex Heppenheimer <aheppenh@...>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 07:25:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Abstain from any Involvement with Women

In MJ 40:45, <Gevaryahu@...> (Gilad J. Gevaryahu) wrote:

> I would like to call the attention of the group to variation of this
> Mishnah as found in an MS, a variation that makes a lot of sense. "al
> tarbeh sicha im ha-isha KESHE-HI NIDA" (source: Ginze Mishnah, Katsh,
> Jerusalem 1970).

How would that fit with the continuation of the mishnah, though ("this
was said [even] about one's own wife; how much more so regarding another
man's wife")? After all, a married woman (other than one's wife) is just
as much "off-limits" when she's niddah as any other time.

It sounds to me like the phrase "keshe-hi niddah" was simply a marginal
explanatory gloss that was mistakenly incorporated in the text of this

Kol tuv,


From: Leah S. Gordon <leah@...>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 14:19:47 -0700
Subject: Abstaining from Involvement with "Women" as "Other"

Rena Freedenberg writes:
>and not chit-chatting or adding anything unnecessary. It does not mean
>pretending that one is deaf and dumb. It does mean, however, that one
>should not speak with women other than one's wife or mother or sister as
>one would speak to a friend or acquaintance.

Although Ms. Freedenberg is not offended by exclusive language, (and
please note that she does not speak for those who are, even though she
is a woman), I do not see the logic of her using the word "one" here to
mean "a male".  This is a perfect example of my earlier point--the
writer and [at least one] reader are female, yet we are not supposed to
speak to women?

Again, I request that posters say "a male" when they mean that.  Thank
you very much to those who wrote to say that they would do so; many of
us really appreciate it!  When there are two options, only one of which
is offensive, I believe that it is better to choose the other, even if
not everyone sees the need.

--Leah Sarah Reingold Gordon


From: <LMuschel@...> (Liz Muschel)
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 13:27:53 EDT
Subject: Disappointment with Kosher Airline Food

Just a note to all kosher travelers: after many disappointing flights
with missing, insufficient or frozen kosher meals, I advise everyone to
ALWAYS take some sort of food with you and to think of airline food as a
bonus. Always take a sandwich or two so you don't end up desperate and
starving. If there is a meal for you on the flight, and it's appropriate
and defrosted, that's great. Plenty of things happen these days to delay
flights, and even if there was a kosher meal, your snack might come in
handy later on. (Like if there is a blackout). In the worst case, if you
end up with extra food you can always use it to help out a fellow

Liz Muschel


From: Alana Suskin <alanamscat@...>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 07:58:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Kosher and Halal

>>while those who eat only Halal will also eat Kosher
>The above is true of Sunnis but not Shiites.

Just to add briefly, I have had to work in a number of occasions to put
together meals that were both Halal and Kosher: it seems to depend on
how observant and strict the Muslim is - I have noticed that generally,
Muslims from e.g. Indonesia tend to be more willing to eat kosher food
and consider it adequately halal, whereas Middle Eastern Muslims often
will regard any food as haram if a Muslim did not have a hand and
preparing it/and or the foods are very simple ones (i.e. cut up veggies
or bread, in which the food's origin is obvious and "safe"). But of
course, generally speaking, the rules of Halal are rather similar to
those of kashrut in a number of ways, and it's best to assume that they
cant just eat kosher food. It's not completely clear to me that this
this necessarily on sectarian lines.

Alana Suskin

From: Keith Bierman <Keith.Bierman@...>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 09:13:08 -0700
Subject: Re: Kosher and Halal

I believe that is an oversimplification. Detailed discussion of Islamic 
customs is off-topic. However a quick google search turns up text such as:

 >One differentiation between *Halal* and *Kosher* is that before  slaughter,
 >*Halal* requires the praying to Allah. *Kosher* does not require a prayer to God
 >before slaughtering.

I have known Sunni's who do not eat meat which is simply marked kosher,
and I have known Shia (sp?) who do.

I would suggest that we let this topic die out, or move it to another list.


From: Dave Eckhardt <davide+<receptionist@...>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 13:02:00 -0400
Subject: Re: Non-Kosher "Kosher" Airline Food

> End with a positve sentence or two of how you are confident they
> will clear up the matter and that you'd like to be able to fly
> on that airline in the future with confidence that your religious
> needs will be accorded due respect and attention.

Aren't there companies that sell kosher "MREs" (army-style field
rations)?  I think those have a shelf life of a year or more, which
could make it practical for an airline to stock them for emergency
situations such as this, either at airports or even maybe on the planes
themselves.  Giving them a very specific solution (including naming one
or more of the companies) might dramatically increase the likelihood
they would do something acceptable.

Dave Eckhardt


From: Shani Thon <shani716@...>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 13:11:59 +0200
Subject: Rentals in Wisconsin or Michigan

   I am interested in renting a cottage for next summer in either
Michigan or Wisconsin. Is there a frum (kipah serugah) community with
shul/kosher food/mikvah/etc in close proximity to a lake? Please respond

    Thank you,
    Shani Thon


From: <BaalHaIkvei@...> (Shraga Rubin)
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 15:23:21 -0400
Subject: Re: Wearing Tefillin while Driving?

In MJ 40v44 Irwin Weiss writes

> I don't see how you save any time by putting on your tefillin at home
> and then going to a minyan, instead of going there and then putting on
> the tefillin.  I can't figure out what this guy was doing.

I don't have a sefer here in front of me, but I seem to remember that
the Shulchan Aruch/Mishneh Brura says that one should walk into shul
with his tfillin already on.  The poskim speak about walking through
unclean places, as well as problems with goyim or improperly dressed
people.  This guy wasn't doing this to save time, but rather because at
5:30 AM there wouldn't seem to be any of theses problems (if he wouldn't
pass abfull dumpster between his house, car and shul.

Additionally, how much kavana does one need for tfillin besides to
concius feeling that one is wearing them? Why is that not possible while
driving?  It isn't any harder than speaking to your friend in the
passenger seat.  (Another way to ask this would be to say how can one
wear tfillin for kree'a shema and shmoneh esray; all of his
concentration should be focused on that. Rather, we see that the level
of concentration is minimal, as long as he is aware that he is wearing
them that would be enough.

Shraga Rubin

From: Harry Weiss <hjweiss@...>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 09:34:52 -0700 (GMT-07:00)
Subject: Wearing Tefillin while Driving?

Try to be dan Lekaf Zechus - judging one favorably.  This past spring
when my brother and I were sitting shiva for my father, occasionally we
would be short on or two men for a minyan.  Someone called the shul and
within a couple of minutes we had the minyan.  Those people who were
already at shul davening did not take off their tefillin to drive to the
shiva house.

Harry Weiss

From: Jack Gross <jbgross@...>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 12:51:49 -0400
Subject: Wearing Tefillin while Driving?

See Shulhan Aruch, Orah Haim, 25:2.

From: Perets Mett <p.mett@...>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 13:50:54 +0100
Subject: Re: Wearing Tefillin while Driving?

  Irwin Weiss wrote:

> I can't imagine how one can have proper Kavana if he were davenning
> while driving.

Why assume that he was davening while driving? The mitsvo of tefilin
starts at first light, whether or not you are davening.

>  I don't see how you save any time by putting on your tefillin at home
> and then going to a minyan, instead of going there and then putting on
> the tefillin.  I can't figure out what this guy was doing.

Shulchon Orukh O.Ch. 25:2 gives a clear instruction to put tefilin on at
home and to arrive in shul wearing the tefilin.

The gentleman concerned obviously acted in accordance with the neglected
halocho of putting on tefilin at home before going to shul.

[ I had a similar experience to Irwin this morning - as I entered the
shul I saw someone emerge from his car wearing tallith and tefilin.]

I think that those of us (myself included) who are unable to fulfil this
halocho correctly should admire those who do.

Perets Mett

From: <ezsurf@...> (Ezriel)
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 18:27:59 +0000
Subject: Re: Wearing Tefillin while Driving?

I remember this happening to me years ago.  I was in shul with my
tefillin already on when a call came that the shiva minyan needed a few
more people.  Instead of taking my tefillin off and putting them on
again at the shiva minyan; I wore them for the trip.  There is an issue
about wearing the shel rosh in the street. I remember the person who was
driving us taking his off.  I don't recall what I did.

Kol tov

From: Zev Sero <zsero@...>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 15:50:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Wearing Tefillin while Driving?

See Shulchan Aruch OC 25:2, which is based on the Zohar's instruction
that one should enter the shul `wearing tzitzit and crowned in
tefillin'.  This custom has fallen out of fashion, due to people's
reluctance to wear tefillin in the street, for fear either of other
people's reactions or of passing through a place where one shouldn't
wear tefillin.  The person you saw seems to have hit on what seems to
him a solution to both problems.

From: Daniel Wildman <danielwildman@...>
Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 10:36:38 -0400
Subject: Wearing Tefillin while Driving?

In MJ V40/#44 Irwin Weiss (<irwin@...>) is puzzled by a man
driving with Tefillin on. This is a perfect opportunity for fulfilling
"v'hevei dan et kol ha'adam l'kaf zchut,' judge all people favorably
(Pirkei Avot 1:6).

More than once a shiva house has phoned the shul in need of additional
male Jews to complete their minyan, and a few of us have who had already
'suited up' chose to get there in the fastest possible manner. That
meant leaving Tefillin in place while driving there. Such might have
been the case in Mr.  Weiss's sighting.

It is not too difficult to theorize other reasonable scenarios, such as
having to watch a child momentarily just at the time one would otherwise
be leaving for shul, or perhaps the person has a custom to wear Tefillin
while learning at home prior to davening.

Since one is required to maintain kavana (intent) on the Tefillin while
they are worn, driving while donning may still be subject to
criticism. Maybe it depends on the extent to which one drives (or prays)
on autopilot.

Danny Wildman

From: Barry S Bank <bsbank@...>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 07:01:33 -0500
Subject: Wearing Tefillin while Driving?

Perhaps he was interested neither in saving time nor was he davening
while driving.  There is a minhag -- possibly based on the original
practice of reciting the Birchot HaShachar at home -- to put on one's
talit and t'fillin before entering the shul (i.e., the room in the shul
in which the davening takes place).  Maybe he was going to shul which
had no place to do this, or maybe he followed the custom of reciting the
Birchot HaShachar at home and was now driving to shul to join a minyan
for the balance of Shacharit.

--Barry S. Bank


End of Volume 40 Issue 46