Volume 40 Number 55
                 Produced: Tue Sep  2  5:01:36 US/Eastern 2003

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Aruch or Aroch
         [Jack Gross]
Bailey's Irish Cream
         [Barry S Bank]
Hebrew related question
         [David Ziants]
Kosher food at London's Heathrow  Airport
         [Shmuel Himelstein]
Kosher in the military and on commercial aircraft
         [Jeremy Rose]
Kosher MREs
         [Jack Gross]
Self Heating Meals and Shabbat (2)
         [Barak Greenfield, Chaim Sukenik]
Simhat Toram Music
         [Elhanan Adler]
Sixteeth Birthday means no Karet
         [Bob Werman]
Standards of Modesty (2)
         [Michael Kahn, Michael Kahn]
Use of Manuscript Variants
         [D. Rabinowitz]
Use of Manuscript Varients
         [Gil Student]


From: Jack Gross <jbgross@...>
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 22:43:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Aruch or Aroch

>From: Elazar M Teitz <remt@...>
>        "Aroch" is tzivuy [imperative]: "Set the table." 

Not quite.  The imperative would be Aroch (hataf patah following the
ayin).  The word in Yeshaya is a Makor (with a kamatz, like shamor,
zachor, kano, which of itself is devoid of gender, number, person, and
tense, and may be past, future or imperative in force depending on
context.  (But cf. Amod in Shoftim 4:20; and perhaps Ala = Alo in Ber.


From: Barry S Bank <bsbank@...>
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 03:06:28 GMT
Subject: Bailey's Irish Cream

Some time ago, Bailey's Irish Cream was (is still?) a Hagen Daz Ice
Cream flavor, certified kosher by the OU.

Knowing that Bailey's was not on the (U.S.) approved list, I emailed the
OU's Vebbe Rebbe and asked if the OU's certification was in error or
perhaps Bailey's Irish Cream was in fact kosher.  The Vebbe Rebbe
responded by saying that the bottled retail Bailey's Irish Cream was
indeed not kosher but that a special kosher run had been made for Hagen
Daz.  I then asked if it was not bizarre that the OU, which does not use
the "DE" designation for fear of confusing consumers, had no fear that
the public would be confused by their certifying Bailey's Irish Cream
flavored ice cream as kosher when Bailey's Irish Cream itself was not
kosher.  The Vebbe Rebbe's exact response was: "Yep.  Weird, isn't it?"!

--Barry S. Bank


From: David Ziants <dziants@...>
Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 23:06:26 +0300
Subject: Re: Hebrew related question

>From: Joshua Ben <josben@...>
> ... Snip
> 2. Lastly, why do a majority of the Hebrew letters (as seen in the
> Tanach) have a daggesh even though only a few changes pronunciation?
> Thanks.

This is what I remember from my Classical Hebrew at secondary school
(British secondary school I think is equivalent to high school in
America), approx. 25 years ago.

1. In the letters Bet, Gimmmel, Dalet, Kaf, Peh, Tav (Acronym: "Beged
Kefet"), the dagesh hardens the sound in the letter.  Almost all
communities today do this for Bet, Kaf & Peh (Vet, Khet & Fey). For Tav,
Ashkenazi pronunciations make this Sav - the softness of the "s"
according to the community (in England for example, many people don't
make a distinction between this and the samech although there ought to
be). Sephardi pronunciations make this Thav, and the softness of the
"th" depends on community. Israeli pronunciation hardly makes a
distinction between with and without a dagesh (both "t"), but by virtual
of the position of a non-dageshed letter at the end of a syllable, there
is still a slight audible difference in sound.

Yemenites, and some S'phardi communities (i.e. the elders who retain
their ancestral pronunciation) know how to have different sounds for
soft and hard Gimmmels & Dalets, but most of us don't.

2. In the remaining letters of the alphabet, a dagesh represents a
doubling of the letter. This typically occurs after the "Hey HaYedia"
(Definite article), e.g. HasSus (the horse), or in a verb in the piel
(strong) form, e.g. bikkaish (he asked) . This is how the words should
be pronounced, so if their happened to be a sh'va under the dageshed
letter, the sh'va would be vocal for the "second" of the doubling which
starts the next syllable.

3. A dagesh cannot occur normally in a guttural letter: aleph, hey,
ayin,raish (maybe reish not so certain if considered guttural or not). A
dot in the hey at the end of a word is not a dagesh, but a mapik, and
causes the sound to be "ah" rather than "ha", eg gevoah (= high).

I hope this helps.

David Ziants
Ma'aleh Adumim, Israel


From: Shmuel Himelstein <himels@...>
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 18:48:51 +0200
Subject: Kosher food at London's Heathrow  Airport

Recently, while we were in transit from Israel, we had a few hours at
London's Heathrow airport. We found that on the second floor of the
international arrivals building, one of the food counters has (among
many others) kosher sandwiches with the London Beth Din Hechsher. I
understand that this counter generally carries this item. Note, though,
that the branch of the food counter on the 1st floor (same chain)
doesn't carry these.

Now for the "translation" for non-Americans: in the above passage,
wherever it says "second floor," substitute "first floor." Wherever it
says "first floor," substitute "ground floor."

Shmuel Himelstein


From: Jeremy Rose <jeremy@...>
Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 20:22:40 +0100
Subject: Kosher in the military and on commercial aircraft

My first experience of kosher food was when I was working for a
contractor about 20 years ago and was assigned to a Royal Navy vessel.
I took my double sealed meals with me and they very helpfully heated
them up for me (having been given strict instructions), then plated them
and added their own gravy.  After that I took tins and sandwiches and
fruit (was only at sea for a few days, though).

The best experience on commercial metal was a kosher meal provided on
Cameroon Airways (from Abidjan to Lagos, I think).  Sealed and certified
kosher by the local caterers and containing two ham and cheese
sandwiches.  I s'pose it could have been worse - beef and cheese.

The result?  *Always* take Tzaydoh La'Dorech (food for the journey).
Chazal figured that one out about 2,500 years ago.

Practically, it doesn't take much pre-planning to stock up for a 1-2
week trip.  Just a little thought and Six-P rule (Proper Planning
Prevents Pitifully Poor Performance - or something a bit similar to

Jeremy L Rose                                             Tel:  +44 1727 832288
Communication Systems Limited                             Fax:  +44 1727 810194


From: Jack Gross <jbgross@...>
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 22:22:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Kosher MREs

>From: Dave Eckhardt <davide+<receptionist@...>
>I'm suggesting airlines themselves could stock them for situations when
>passengers and their regular kosher meals are separated by unfortunate

>From the online instructions that I've read
(http://labriutemeals.com/how_it_works.htm) it appears that
    [1] heating of MRE's would pose a safety hazzard if left to be done
by the passenger's seat
    [2] there is no claim that the inner package is double wrapped. 
Absent that, there would be no assurance of kashrus if the food container
were served, already heated by the staff, to the passenger.


From: Barak Greenfield <DocBJG@...>
Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2003 23:12:07 -0400
Subject: RE: Self Heating Meals and Shabbat

> From: Leah Aharoni <leah25@...>

> 	La Bruite Meals contain a patented, flameless, food heater made
> of magnesium and iron. When the enclosed salt water packet is opened and
> poured onto the heating element it produces real heat and steam right
> inside the box, and your meal turns simmering hot in minutes.

> Since this is not a standard, accepted way of cooking, what would be the
> status of such meals on Shabbat or Yom Tov (this is a theoretical not
> halacha lemaase question ).

I was thinking about this recently, what with the blackout and all. Three
issues came to mind:

1. If the metal shavings in the heating element get REALLY hot, might they
not have the status of fire, halachically?
2. If the heating element heats the water, and then the water heats the
meal, isn't that toledes hachamah (cooking with that which was heated by the
non-fire heat source, rather than with the non-fire heat source itself),
which is prohibited?
3. If everyone gets in on the action, then this method is no longer usable
(see Igros Moshe OC 3:52 re: microwave oven).


From: Chaim Sukenik <sukenc@...>
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 08:24:41 +0300 (IDT)
Subject: Self Heating Meals and Shabbat

The owner of the company says that the poskim with whom they have
discussed the matter have in fact compared it to "sun cooking" and have
said that it is rabbinically forbidden.

Chaim Sukenik


From: <elhanan@...> (Elhanan Adler)
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 05:32:29 +0300 (IDT)
Subject: Simhat Toram Music

> From: Alison Foreman <al4man@...>
> Does anybody know of any resources on the Internet with audio files for
> tunes of davening/laining and songs of Simchat Torah (Tefilat HaGeshem,
> calling up the Chatan Torah and Bereishit?) and etc?

see: http://jnul.huji.ac.il/dl/music/sukot/

and for other holidays:


 Elhanan Adler                                                     
 Director, MALMAD - Israel Center for Digital Information Services 
 Coordinator, Israel Inter-University Library Network              
 Email: <elhanan@...>                                       
 Tel.: 972-2-6585005, FAX: 972-2-6511771, Home tel.: 972-2-6515977 


From: <RWERMAN@...> (Bob Werman)
Date: Mon,  1 Sep 2003 18:38 +0200
Subject: Sixteeth Birthday means no Karet

Can some one help with the masorah. I know that one doesn't usually
celebrate birthdays but the sixteeth is a must, since it means you are
not subject to karet, a dire and undefined punishment.  The idea seems
to be based on the fact that those under twenty at the time of the sin
of the Golden Calf were spared and entered Israel at the age of sixty.
Sources, please?  Thanks.

__Bob Werman


From: Michael Kahn <mi_kahn@...>
Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2003 22:41:20 -0400
Subject: Re: Standards of Modesty

>True a charedi synagogue might object to a women coming dressed to
>shule with her knees exposed but a modern orthodox (or even
>Conservative) Rabbi would EQUALLY object if say a woman walked in with
>her mid-section exposed. Hence ALL Jewish groups would uphold the same
>STANDARDS of modesty in the synagogue

We all have standards. That's besides the point. What is crucial is if
our standards are hallachik or not. It's nice to know that no one lets
people dress provocatively in their shull. But if the halacha requires a
woman to cover her knees (as a man I don't know the exact protim and
sources) then that's what should be enforced. One who values hallachik
tznius has a unique and different set of values from one who doesn't.

I am not modern orthodox and don't know much about that community.
Therefore, I don't assume they are a bunch of prootzos, Chas Vasholom.
In fact, I once spent a Shabbos on the Gruss Kollel campus in
Yerushalaim and heard that some of the Kollel men in YU wanted their
wives to be makpid on peah nachris (wigs) and require their wives to
only wear snoods. But to say that all who have a standard are therefore
by definition equal is wrong.

From: Michael Kahn <mi_kahn@...>
Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 13:58:16 -0400
Subject: Re: Standards of Modesty

We've spent a lot of time, justifiably, discussing what areas of a
woman's body must be covered when reciting a brachah. What parts of a
man's body must similarly be covered during a bracha? Can I make a
bracha in shorts? Bare-chested? I always wondered about this. I assume
barefoot is not a problem.

Thank you.


From: D. Rabinowitz <rwdnick@...>
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 08:54:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Use of Manuscript Variants

For a comprehesive look at the use of manuscript variants and the Hozen
Ish opinion see the new collection of articles Va'as L'Chochim and the
article by R. Sholom Zalmen Havlin


From: Gil Student <gil_student@...>
Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2003 22:19:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Use of Manuscript Varients

Michael Kahn wrote:
>I've heard that when it comes to halacha, the Chazon Ish was opposed to
>taking hidden sforim (genuzos) into account.

True, but others, such as the Chida, were less opposed. One interesting
example is the Tosefos Rid which was first published from manuscript in
1931 and was used halachah le-ma'aseh by R' Moshe Feinstein in a
teshuvah dated four years later.  See the following posts for more info
(sorry for referencing another list but there is too much details to
repost it all):


Gil Student


End of Volume 40 Issue 55