Volume 40 Number 60
                 Produced: Mon Sep 15 23:45:18 US/Eastern 2003

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Arch Of Titus.
         [Immanuel Burton]
B'eir Hagoilo
         [Gershon Dubin]
Bugs in Corn-on-the-Cob
         [Gershon Dubin]
Chofetz Chayim
         [Ken Bloom]
Follow Halacha too far
         [Eugene Bazarov]
Hebrew related question
         [Jack Gross]
Jewish population during Chashmonayim era
         [Brandon Raff]
         [Carl Singer]
Motion Sensors
         [Bernard Raab]
Motion Sensors - A simple solution?
         [Carl Singer]
Relative and Absolute Erva
         [Dr. Jeffrey R. Woolf]
         [Alex Heppenheimer]
Unsupervised Bars
         [Bernard Raab]
Zichron Teruah
         [Meir Possenheimer]


From: Immanuel Burton <IBURTON@...>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 16:07:51 +0100
Subject: Arch Of Titus.

Has anyone heard of the custom not to walk under the Arch Of Titus in
Rome?  I will be going there shortly on holiday/vacation, and was told
by someone of this custom.  If it is a genuine custom, what is its
source and reason?

On a slightly different topic, if anyone knows of a place in Rome where
I will be able to buy a siddur following the Italian custom (Nusach
Italki), I should be grateful if they would give me details.  Many

Immanuel Burton.


From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@...>
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 23:14:36 -0400
Subject: B'eir Hagoilo

From: Zev Sero <zsero@...>

<<But if you are referring to the Maharal MiPrague's contribution to
Jewish apologetics, that is called `Be'er Hagulah', with a shuruk rather
than a cholam.>>

Please explain the difference.



From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@...>
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 23:19:16 -0400
Subject: Bugs in Corn-on-the-Cob

From: David Ziants <dziants@...>

<<It is known that a whole bug cannot be battel b'shishim (annulled 
 as less than one part in sixty), but maybe any "flavour" that might
emanate from the bugs that hid inside the cob can be ???

 I discussed this point briefly with the local Rav, and he said this
battel b'shishim logic was "shtuyot" (= rubbish or nonsense). >>

I'm not sure exactly what the Rav was dismissing, perhaps you could

The halacha is that a whole bug is not batel.  However, the *taste* of a
bug is not only batel, it does not need shishim since it's a disgusting

Therefore, if you see (even) a whole bug fall into your chicken soup,
you may ( I'm not saying you should!) scoop it out, suck out the soup
adhering to it, and toss it away before serving the soup,which is 100%



From: Ken Bloom <kabloom@...>
Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 13:15:59 -0700
Subject: Chofetz Chayim

Is anybody on this list familiar with the two volume english translation
of Sefer Chofetz Chaim translated by Rabbi Dovid Marchant (isbns
0873068459 and 1583303847)? Is this a complete translation? What do you
think of its quality?


From: Anonymous
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 07:38:39
Subject: Coverage

Some years ago when my wife was teaching in a religious school a women
walked into the lunch room severely dressed in a black and white outfit
-- tight skirt and blouse, go-go boots, etc. -- a stunning outfit, long
sleeved, covering that which needs covering, etc., but not a lunchtime
school outfit -- my wife commented to a fellow teacher -- who's the slut
who just walked in.  She was informed by her colleague that it was the
Rebbetzin such-and-such.

The discussions are on coverage, etc. -- but there's more to it than
that -- group (congregational) norms should also be respected.  The fine
sweater or necklace that says "Princess in training" or worse yet "B-tch
in training" is probably not what our daughters should wear to shule or

Midriff is a problem that some women should privately advise others to
be more careful about.  On more than one occassion unintentional bare
midriffs are "flashed" in shule by women who apparently aren't wearing
slips, etc.  and whose blouses don't tuck in.


From: Eugene Bazarov <evbazarov@...>
Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2003 23:13:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Follow Halacha too far

Is there a concept in Halacha of "going too far"? In other words,
technically a person should do something but this thing is just too
much.  An example: when I was learning in E"Y there was a story/rumor
that is probably (hopefully!) not true. There are certain people that
take their chickens for a walk before shechting them to make sure the
chickens do not have any broken bones. When we heard this story we all
laughed.  Technically a person probably should make sure that the
chicken does not have a broken bone, but somehow we have the feeling
that this is "going too far." Another example is when someone tells
their three-year-old daughter not to wear short sleeves.

Is there a concept where it is technically correct to do something but
it is just too silly to do or not to do? Notice I am not asking about 1)
a chosid shoyta where (at least the way the gemorah brings down the
term) there are two opposing halachic requirements (saving a woman's
life and touching a woman) and a jerk chooses the wrong one. 2) I am
also not asking about something like butel be'shishim where the halacha
is only defined till a certain point and then it is legal to do. 3) Nor
am I interested in hidur mitzva, where if one goes further then he is
pius.  Rather I am interested in the concept of a well-defined assei/lo
sasei where if you go too far you are silly. Is there any writing
(gemorah /poiskim /contemporary /academic) about the idea and trying to
define it.  I am sure that the concept of "going too far" is subject to
fluctuation with time and communities. One persons "going too far" is
another person's exactness.

Any thoughts?
E.V. Bazarov


From: Jack Gross <jbgross@...>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 11:15:43 -0400
Subject: Re: Hebrew related question

  From: Ezriel Krumbein <ezsurf@...>
  The way I like to point out the doubling of the sound is that
  Shabbos has two b's in it because it is a dagesh chazak. 

Similarly the double N in "cinnamon", for the geminated Nun in Kinnamon.


From: Brandon Raff <Brandon@...>
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 21:44:24 +0200
Subject: Jewish population during Chashmonayim era


I am trying to find out the size of the Jewish population in Israel
during the Chashmonayim revolt in 165 BCE, and the total Jewish
population during that same time period. Please include source reference
if possible.



From: Carl Singer <csngr@...>
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 14:45:36 -0400
Subject: Re: Kaddish

>I remember hearing a shiur once that discussed different conceptions of
>the purpose of Kaddish with one difference being whether you would say
>kaddish at a minyan you weren't davening with(eg you walked into the
>main minyan after davening at hashkama and they were just finishing
>karbanot).  Does anyone know of any sources which discuss this issue?

Similar questions -- we hold to back-to-back minyanim on Shabbos 7-9AM
and 9 to ?  What is the status of someone who intends to daven at the
9AM Minyan but walks into the shule while the 7AM Minyan is at a

Also, we have shiur in the afternoon that ends in time for Mincha -- if
someone who didn't attend the shiur walks in do they say Kaddish?  (a)
if they came in and heard the Rabbi say the mehadrin or (b) if they



From: Bernard Raab <beraab@...>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 10:19:57 -0400
Subject: Motion Sensors

From: Charles Halevi <c.halevi@...>
>Regarding the question of motion sensors activating a/c, heat or lights
>in a hotel room on Shabbat, IIRC I notice nobody has suggested simply
>asking management to disable the sensors for Shabbat.

If the hotel has installed a motion sensor with a built-in on-off switch, 
this is something you could do yourself. If they haven't, they will probably 
advise you to just turn off the unit, which will unfortunately deprive you 
of its use on Shabbat.


From: Carl Singer <csngr@...>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 07:48:27 -0400
Subject: Motion Sensors - A simple solution?

I agree that hotel management is usually very accomodating and will try
to help -- but this is not necessarily something they can fix with a
smile -- unlike giving you a room w/ a (non-electronic) key door --
there may be no convenient way to bypass the system.

But it seems always to get back to why do you find yourself in a hotel
on Shabbos?

Carl Singer


From: Dr. Jeffrey R. Woolf <woolfj@...>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 13:43:36 +0200
Subject: Relative and Absolute Erva

I too heard from one of Reb Aharon Soloveitchik's zt"l closest and
reliable talmidim that theoretically speaking, only 'maqom hatorpah' is
absolute ervah. Reb Aharon explained that the guiding principle is
'hirhur aveira', which to a significant degree is subjective and/or
socially determined.

This entire discussion, of course, is be-diavad. LeChatchilah there are
certainly areas of the female and the male body that should be covered
(though these are probably different in different contexts such as Shul
etc.). A classic case is the often misquoted psak of theArukh HaShulhan
about women's hair. Be-Dia'vad it's not erva for qeiat
Shma. Le'Chatchila married women should cover their hair.

This also raises the question regarding the shift in values regarding
nudity in general, between the Middle Ages and the Modern Period, as
expressed by the nudes that adorn the title pages of various seforim
printed in Italy.

I am somewhat bemused by G. Dubin's demagogic response to a legitimate
halakhic question.

Jeffrey R. Woolf


From: Alex Heppenheimer <aheppenh@...>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 09:00:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Sources?

In MJ 40:59, Shlomo Argamon <argamon@...> asked:

>I'm looking for sources for a couple of ideas floating around the 
>Jewish community - any help would be appreciated.  The first is an 
>idea that the name that one is given influences who one is/becomes.
>The second is a vaguely remembered gemara stating something like "How
>does one honor parents after they are dead?  One repeats Torah in
>their name and says 'hareini kaparat mishkavo'" or something like 

The first one comes from the Gemara (Berachot 7b), where this idea is
derived from a homiletical reading of Tehillim 46:9; the Gemara's
expression for this is "shma garim" - the name has an influence. (See
also Yoma 83b, where R' Meir inferred from someone's name that he was a
wicked person.)

The second is also a Gemara (Kiddushin 31b), and it is cited as halachah
in Shulchan Aruch, Yoreh De'ah 240:9. (To be exact, the Gemara's
phrasing is that _if_ one repeats a Torah thought in his or her deceased
parent's name, "hareini kaparat mishkavo" should be appended - i.e., the
honoring consists of adding this phrase (or "zichrono/ah livrachah,"
after twelve months), not of saying over Torah in their names per se.)

Kol tuv,


From: Bernard Raab <beraab@...>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 09:47:06 -0400
Subject: Unsupervised Bars

 From: Akiva Miller
Zev Sero wrote <<< In the USA it is ubiquitous that, at weddings, the bar
is not under the same supervision as the caterer, and usually has no
hechsher at all. >>>

>>Maybe with the more lax hechsherim, but how could this be with the
better hechsherim, i.e., the ones who claim that everything they do is
l'chatchila? If they're serving treif at the bar, wouldn't that treif up
the glassware when they all get washed (in hot water) together?<<

To use the words "kosher" and "treif" in connection with wine or whiskey
is to use a shorthand which is likely to lead us astray, as evidenced by
this discussion. My former Rav, a Gadol B'Torah and Rosh Yeshiva, was
once asked about this problem in connection with "unkosher" wines which
were sold at the bars of some kosher hotels in the Catskill mountain
resorts of New York.  In particular, he was asked about the possibility
that a guest would bring such wine into the dining room and accidentally
spill some onto your plate.  His answer was, (to praphrase): Wipe it off
your plate! If it spills onto your food, send the dish back to the
kitchen for a replacement.  From this I learned that there is no issue
of "treifing up" dishes or glassware from "unkosher" wine or
liquor. (When liquors are judged "unkosher" it is generally because of
the suspicion that it was aged in barrels that had contained "unkosher"


From: Meir Possenheimer <meir@...>
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 19:12:13 +0100
Subject: Re: Zichron Teruah

> Saying "yom zichron teruah" is simply an error, and needs to be
> corrected.  In any case, "yom zichron teruah" was never said and is
> just an error. It is easy to see how the error came into
> being. Printers of mahzorim printed: YOM TERUAH and in between the two
> words they added, in parentheses "(beshabbat: zichron)".

Interestingly, Baer in his commentary on his Siddur specifically
includes the word "yom", though this appears at variance with the source
he brings from Masesches Sofrim. It seems highly out of character for
him not to have corrected a "printer's error" .................


End of Volume 40 Issue 60