Volume 40 Number 61
                 Produced: Tue Sep 16  5:14:48 US/Eastern 2003

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Absolute vs Relative standards of Modesty
         [Andy Levy-Stevenson]
         [Avi Feldblum]
The Blessing Of "Who Has Not Made Me A Gentile".
         [Gilad J. Gevaryahu]
Book Release - ATID
         [Jeffrey Saks]
Dress for Shul
         [Michael Kahn]
Follow Halacha too far (2)
         [Michael Kahn, Rabin Nouranifar]
         [Mike Gerver]
Looking for Mutty Kagan
         [Saul Stokar]
Milk and Meat
         [Gershon Dubin]
         [Ben Z. Katz]
Suit for goods Israelites took leaving Egypt
         [Michael Kahn]
Woman's Role Under Chuppah
         [Yisrael Medad]
Request: Seeking apartment in Israel for Succot
         [Nanette Rand]


From: Andy Levy-Stevenson <andy@...>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 14:19:28 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Absolute vs Relative standards of Modesty

From: Yehonatan Chipman <yonarand@...>

> Just a sociological, factual observation: But as a matter of fact:
> standards of our culture today are such that, wherever you go--
> subways, malls, city streets, airplane terminals -- you are likely to
> see women's (usually upoung girls') midsections.  "Ba'avotenu
> harabbim" you can see them even on the streets of Jerusalem ir
> kodsheinu vetifartenu -- not to mention New York, Boston, Minneapolis,
> Baltimore, etc.

Now, now, I must protest ... here in Minneapolis, home of the frozen
chosen, your midsection would be an ice-cube in two minutes flat if you
didn't keep it modestly draped!


Andy Levy-Stevenson
Learn about the Minneapolis Hebrew Conversation group:


From: Avi Feldblum <mljewish@...>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 04:54:39 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Administrivia

Hello All,

Shamash is in the process of making some changes, which include both the
host machine as well as the software used for running the lists (for the
more technical among us, they are moving from ListProc software to
ListServ software). One minor difference with the new host is that they
are not allowing direct telnet/ssh access for user accounts. While the
ListServ server supports more control in creating digests via their
software, rather than my creating it as I currently do using perl
scripts on the unix side, I would prefer to be able to transition first
with as little change as possible. Once I have more time with the
ListServ software, I'm more willing to try managing as a pure client.

So, the issue I have is finding a Unix / Linux based system that I can
get an account on that allows telnet or ssh, and that has the following
software tools:

pine or some similar email client (I'm fine with elm, open to others as

 From a file size perspective, I typically am running about 40-50Meg in
size of all the files I have in the account. I can trim that, but
ideally, I would be looking for an account that could allocate to me 60
Meg for total file storage.

Finding places that offer telnet/ssh access is getting more and more
rare these days. So I am turning to you, the readership, for any leads
where I might find such access. Thanks in advance for any information.

Avi Feldblum
mail-jewish Moderator


From: <Gevaryahu@...> (Gilad J. Gevaryahu)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 12:31:58 EDT
Subject: The Blessing Of "Who Has Not Made Me A Gentile".

Immanuel Burton (MJv40n59) suggests that in Birkot haShacher of the
morning prayers the nosah should be "shelo asani nochri" rather than the
common one "shelo asani goy." Immanuel's reasons were given that 1.
<<Firstly, when used in the sense of a non-Jew it is a derogatory term,
and one should not use derogatory terms in prayer>> and 2. <<The word
"goy" means "nation," and in fact this its meaning throughout Scripture.
(Source: The Encyclopaedia Of Jewish Prayer by Macy Nulman, published by
Aronson, 1993.)  The word "nochri" means a foreigner, and is the more
correct term for a non-Jew.>>

I disagree with the above "facts" and conclusions. Although "goy" could
mean nations, in some Biblical texts it means also non-Jewish nations
(Lev 26:33; Jer. 10:2) that is Gentiles. In Rabbinical literature a Goy
means both, and the connotation clarifies if it refers to nations or to
Gentiles. "Goy she'amar lo le-Israel" (Tos., Demai 1:18) "Ra'ah isha
achat Goyah" (Yer. Avoda Zara 40:1). In some of the Muslim lands Goy was
the ref. to a Muslim while Arel was used for a Christian.

The text of this beracha can be found in Tosefta Berachot (Lieberman)
6:18 and the text is "goy" not Nochri" likewise is Seder Rav Amram and
some texts from the Geniza as well as in Rambam.

The derogatory current meaning is clear, but does Immanuel has any
evidence that the derogatory meaning was there from the beginning? We
know that in many censorship cases the term "goy" was changed by the
censorship to other terms, such as Nochri, Oved Kochavim Umazalot etc,
but this support the opposit conclusion, that Goy is the original text
and due to censorship pressure nochri was substituted instead. BTW, in
England the derogatory meaning caused the formation of the word "yok,"
meaning a non-Jew. Goy spelled backwards where the g sounds became k.

And lastly, does Immanuel suggests also to change "shelo asani ke-Goyey
ha-Aratzot" in Aleynu?

Gilad J. Gevaryahu


From: Jeffrey Saks <atid@...>
Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2003 21:00:35 +0200
Subject: Book Release - ATID

We are proud and delighted to announce the release of "Wisdom From All
My Teachers," ATID's collection of twenty essays on contemporary Jewish
education, published with Urim Publications.

The volume contains reflections on the challenges, methods, and goals of
teaching Torah by leading Jewish educators from Israel and the Diaspora.
Visit www.atid.org to view Table of Contents, author bios, and a "look
inside" to sample chapters. 

"Wisdom From All My Teachers:
Challenges and Initiatives in Contemporary Torah Education"
Edited by Jeffrey Saks and Susan Handelman
(Jerusalem: Urim Publications and ATID, 2003)
Hardcover, 399 pages
ISBN 965-7108-56-x
Available through all fine booksellers and on-line at

The contributing authors are: R. Hayyim Angel, Dr. Steve Bailey, R.
Yitzchak Blau, R. Chaim Brovender, Erica Brown, R. Shalom Carmy,
Dr. Yoel Finkelman, R. Asher Friedman, Dr. Beverly Gribetz, R. Norman
Lamm, R. Aharon Lichtenstein, Gilla Rosen, R. Gidon Rothstein, R. Doniel
Schreiber, R.  Moshe Simkovich, Dr. Dodi F. Tobin, Yael Unterman,
R. Avraham Walfish, Yael Wieselberg, and Dr. Joel B. Wolowelsky.

In "Wisdom From All My Teachers" innovative Jewish educators explore the
nature of Torah study and its relationship to the love and awe of God;
personal moral development; the role of worldly wisdom in Torah
education; the cultivation of the student's soul; the challenges of
teaching Talmud and Bible to contemporary students; the use of
philosophy and aggadah in the yeshivah curriculum; and the place of the
Israel experience in shaping the religious personality. These essays
will stimulate all who feel strongly about the future of Torah teaching.

Details at www.atid.org
R. Chaim Brovender, President, ATID
R. Jeffrey saks, Director


From: Michael Kahn <mi_kahn@...>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 11:51:01 -0400
Subject: Re: Dress for Shul

>even a reform rabbi would object a woman came in to his synagogue with
>her midsection exposed

My dad told me that as a kid growing up in the 50's in Elmira, NY he
couldn't go into the shul during davening without a jacket on! This in
an orthodox shul without a mechitza. Talk about how things have changed.


From: Michael Kahn <mi_kahn@...>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 00:34:40 -0400
Subject: Re: Follow Halacha too far

The gemara, in pesachim, for one, discuses what is called 'ain ldavar
sof', meaning if you do that there will never be an end. The Gemara is
discussing the length one must check for chometz.

From: Rabin Nouranifar <Rabin.Nouranifar@...>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 00:30:26 -0400
Subject: Re: Follow Halacha too far

I don't have a Talmudic Concordance handy, but this exact issue is
addressed on several occasions in the Gemara, where the Tana Kama
finally replies: "Lo Natan Torah Le Mal'achei Hasharet:" the Torah was
not given to the serving angels. The Gemara is trying to deter a person
from "going too far" in order to ensure the fulfillment/performance of a

I hope this helps.

R. Nouranifar.


From: <MJGerver@...> (Mike Gerver)
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 18:56:42 EDT
Subject: Gelatin

Ben Katz writes, in v40n59:

          actually when gelatin first was developed there were poskim
      who felt that even gelatin from a nonkosher animal might be
      permissible, but this did not become the dominant opinion.

Gelatin has been around for about a thousand years, I think. But I'm
pretty sure (sorry I don't have time to track this down) that it is only
quite recently, within the last generation or two, that a majority of
poskim held the opinion that gelatin from nonkosher animals was not
kosher, even if the bones were completely free of meat and dried, before
extracting the gelatin. The majority opinion earlier, I believe, and
still held by many poskim, was that the gelatin did not retain any
flavor of the non-kosher meat if the meat was completely removed from
the bones and they were dried.

Surprisingly, though, it seems that everyone today holds that gelatin
extracted from the bones of a shechted animal is pareve, if the bones
and free of meat and dried. I learned this recently when I saw some
Ghirardelli chocolate squares with mint filling (quite good, by the
way), which were milchig, had a Kof-K, and had gelatin listed among the
ingredients. When I wrote to the Kof-K about this, they told me that the
gelatin was either from fish, or from kosher slaughtered animals, and
that according to all opinions it is kosher and pareve.

Can someone explain to me the logic of the opinion that holds that
gelatin from the dried, meat-free bones of non-kosher animals is trafe,
but that gelatin from the dried, meat-free bones of kosher slaughtered
animals is pareve? I know there was an extensive thread on gelatin on
this list a few years ago, but I don't remember this question being

Mike Gerver
Raanana, Israel


From: Saul Stokar <dp22414@...>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 08:53:15 +0200
Subject: Looking for Mutty Kagan

My son, who is currently the librarian of Yeshivat Hesder Shvut Yisrael
(Efrat/Gva'ot/Efrat) is searching for Mutty Kagan, who left a large
collection of books in the Yeshiva 6-7 years ago. If anyone knows how to
contact this person, please ask him to contact me by email at
<dp22414@...> or my son at the phone number 972-54-535904. Thank

Saul Stokar


From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@...>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 16:14:45 GMT
Subject: Milk and Meat

From: Ben Z. Katz <bkatz@...>

<<A second example is electricity, which was completely allowed on yom
tov by Rav Hutner, who was arguably the greatest posek of 19th century

I don't know who you mean, but Rav Yitzchok Hutner, head of Yeshiva
Rabbi Chaim Berlin, was neither alive in the 19th century, nor did he
live in Germany, nor was he known as a posek.

Please clarify.



From: Ben Z. Katz <bkatz@...>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 01:15:12 -0500
Subject: Re: Sources?

Speaking of sources, I remember hearing once an expression something like
"im ayn lecha ela Torah, af Torah ayn lecha"  (roughly "if all you have is
Torah, then you don't even have Torah").  I would love to see the

	Thanks in advance.

Ben Z. Katz, M.D.
Children's Memorial Hospital, Division of Infectious Diseases
2300 Children's Plaza, Box # 20, Chicago, IL 60614
Ph 773-880-4187; Fax 773-880-8226


From: Michael Kahn <mi_kahn@...>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 12:01:28 -0400
Subject: Re: Suit for goods Israelites took leaving Egypt

>In light of the Forward article about the potential suit by
>   Egyptians for the goods the Israelites took when they left Egypt

Could you fill us in on this article? I never heard about it. Are the
egyptians really suing the Israelis?


From: Yisrael Medad <ybmedad@...>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 23:13:45 +0200
Subject: Woman's Role Under Chuppah

I have taken note of a new suggestion for equalizing the chatan and
kallah in the wedding ceremony. The bride replies after her consecration
by saying "Hareni mekudeshet lecha b'taba'at zo k'dat Moshe v'Yisrael"
(Behold, I am consecrated to you with this ring according to the law of
Moses and Israel).  It is presumed that there is no Halachic
ramification by the statement and so, it means nothing except to provide
a feminist feeling fulfillment.

Any thoughts?
Yisrael Medad


From: Nanette Rand <nanetterand@...>
Subject: Request: Seeking apartment in Israel for Succot

Seeking rental in Jerusalem with Sukka for Orthodox family of eight
people for Succot - October 7-20,2003. Please reply <nanetterand@...>


End of Volume 40 Issue 61