Volume 40 Number 62
                 Produced: Wed Sep 17  4:58:13 US/Eastern 2003

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Arch Of Titus
         [Dani Wassner]
Bugs in Corn-on-the-Cob (2)
         [David Ziants, Gershon Dubin]
Follow Halacha too far
         [Yehuda Landy]
         [Roger & Naomi Kingsley]
Kaddish (2)
         [I Kasdan, Martin D. Stern]
Looking for seforim printed in Sudilkov, Ukraine
         [Ginsburg, Paul]
Ripley's "Believe It Or Not" and the Arch of Titus
         [Charles Halevi]
Sources? (2)
         [Yehuda Landy, Alex Heppenheimer]


From: Dani Wassner <dani@...>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 11:04:31 +0200
Subject: RE: Arch Of Titus

I recently saw a travel show on "Tchelet" (the "Jewish" tv station here
in Israel) about travel in Rome. Indeed the host did say that it is the
custom for Jews NOT to walk under the arch.

Interestingly, he also mentioned that for many generations it has been
the custom of the Jews of Rome to read Eicha on Tisha B'Av night sitting
on the floor around the Arch. Most appropriate.

Dani Wassner


From: David Ziants <dziants@...>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 00:37:11 +0200
Subject: Re: Bugs in Corn-on-the-Cob

I had stated:
> <<It is known that a whole bug cannot be battel b'shishim (annulled
>  as less than one part in sixty), but maybe any "flavour" that might
> emanate from the bugs that hid inside the cob can be ???
> I discussed this point briefly with the local Rav, and he said this
> battel b'shishim logic was "shtuyot" (= rubbish or nonsense). >>

Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@...> asked for clarification of
my posting for what the Rav was dismissing:
> ....
> The halacha is that a whole bug is not batel.  However, the *taste*  of a
> bug is not only batel, it does not need shishim since it's a disgusting
> taste.
> ....

Thank you for your comment, which gives support to my (actually it came
from discussing with a colleague) supposition. Are you then saying that
it stills needs battel b'rov to be permitted, or are you saying that the
more of the horrid taste the "better" because more p'gam (invalidation
of edibility) makes it permitted for kashrut (it doesn't sound very
healthy though !!!!) ?  I would be interested in hearing more details on

The Rav explained to me that there is still the possibility of the
presence of whole bugs running around in the surface area and around the
corn kernels, and that they all don't run away.  This is why he answered
"shtuyot", it seems.

This, though, somewhat contradicts what was said in the Rabbanut notice
that the "trippasim" (or maybe it was the other type - am working from
memory) bugs run away and hide inside the cob when they are disturbed
when one peels the outer leaves off. The notice took the space to
mention this point as part of the background explanation, but without
mentioning any halachic ramifications because of this. Maybe there are
some bugs that are not so hasty to run away, but the notice just didn't
go into any more details of this point. It said that the discovery of
this is relatively recent.

In any case, when I heard that there are people who live in chareidi
circles in Israel who don't (or didn't) have qualms in eating
Corn-on-the-Cob with the corn attached to the cob (we are not talking
about the hydroponics bugless variety, as this is very new if it is yet
on the market), then I want to find out whether there is an authority in
Israel that one can rely on, and what is the reasoning if there is a

Maybe people just follow (or followed) what they did before they came to
live in Israel, not knowing that the situation demands (or might demand)
following halacha differently here.

Another possibility is that what might have been considered a chumra in
the past (and not every chareidi follows every chumra in the "book"),
has become stricter because of the recent laboratory tests and higher
known percentages of infected produce.

David Ziants
Ma'aleh Adumim, Israel

From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@...>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 23:33:08 -0400
Subject: Re: Bugs in Corn-on-the-Cob

On Tue, 16 Sep 2003 00:37:11 +0200 David Ziants
<dziants@...> writes:

<<Are you then saying that it stills needs battel b'rov to be permitted>>

Yes, Yoreh Deah 104/3.

I have no idea what the status of the bugs running away is.



From: <nzion@...> (Yehuda Landy)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 13:16:34 +0200
Subject: Re: Follow Halacha too far

> Is there a concept in Halacha of "going too far"? In other words,
> technically a person should do something but this thing is just too
> much.  An example: when I was learning in E"Y there was a story/rumor
> that is probably (hopefully!) not true. There are certain people that
> take their chickens for a walk before shechting them to make sure the
> chickens do not have any broken bones. When we heard this story we all
> laughed.  Technically a person probably should make sure that the
> chicken does not have a broken bone, but somehow we have the feeling
> that this is "going too far." Another example is when someone tells
> their three-year-old daughter not to wear short sleeves.

I'm not sure how one determines whether or not the halacha is being
taken to far. In the case of chickens, they are delivered to the
shchitah place in crates. In the process of transportation the may get
banged up by the crate (particularly if it is a metal crate). Often the
crates are thrown onto the truck etc. An animal that was banged up is
treifah unless it walks four amos. For this reason some hechsheirim
require the chickens to walk four amos upon arrival at the shchita
place. I think this is done be releasing them into a long narrow room
chasing them from one end to the other.

	Have a k'sivah v'chasimah tovah.
												Yehuda Landy

P.S. If one decides to train his daughter the concepts of tzniut from a
young age, is he taking the halacha too far?


From: Roger & Naomi Kingsley <rogerk@...>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 13:36:26 +0300
Subject: Gelatine

As an aside, since gelatine is suspected of *possibly* being able to
carry the infectious agent of 'mad cow disease' [with AFAIK no
scientific basis - but not much is known about prions anyway] - it would
be better avoided altogether, and that from kosher animals would be
preferable to animals in general [since kosher animals are slaughtered
at a young age].

Another aside while on the subject - I was told in the USA many years
ago [but probably an urban legend] that gelatine, although made from
'clean' bones, and therefore not treif as such, was made from bones
imported from, e.g., India, of unknown origin, and it was *possible*
that human bones were included - and therefore, was not included in
products with a hechsher.

Naomi Kingsley


From: I Kasdan <Ikasdan@...>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 09:14:51 -0400
Subject: Re: Kaddish

<<Similar questions -- we hold to back-to-back minyanim on Shabbos 7-9AM
and 9 to ?  What is the status of someone who intends to daven at the
9AM Minyan but walks into the shule while the 7AM Minyan is at a
Kaddish. >>

Rabbi Yisroel Reisman discussed this question last year at his motzei
Shabbos shiurim that are available on tape.  If I recall correctly, he
said that Rav Moshe, ztl and others held that one says kaddish at the
mnyon he attends, not the tail end of the prior one.  B'n I will double
check and report if my recollection was wrong.

From: <MDSternM7@...> (Martin D. Stern)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 03:38:49 EDT
Subject: Re: Kaddish

        In a message dated 14/9/03 4:43:40 am, Carl Singer
<csngr@...> writes re reciting Kaddish by those not having
attended a particular minyan or shiur:

<<Also, we have shiur in the afternoon that ends in time for Mincha --
if someone who didn't attend the shiur walks in do they say Kaddish?
(a) if they came in and heard the Rabbi say the hadran or (b) if they

    Surely there is no objection in either case when several others are
saying kaddish anyway. If no one else is doing so it is not correct to
say kaddish unless he has participated to some extent in the
shiur. However, where saying this non-obligatory kaddish will delay the
start of davenning it should most certainly not be said because of
tirkha detsibbura, inconveniencing the congregation!

    The situation would be different in those communities where 

(i) only one person says kaddish at a time ,
(ii)the custom is that the Aleinu kaddish would always be said even
if there were no avel in shul 
and (iii)   there is no other avel to say it.

    In these circumstances he could say it since he would be no worse
than anyone else present; I remember this happening to me once when I
was an avel.  However he could not 'push aside' someone else who had
been davenning with that minyan even if he were 'more entitled' to the
kaddish, e.g. he had yahrzeit and the other was only in the eleven
months of mourning for a parent.

    Yours sincerely

Martin D. Stern
7, Hanover Gardens, Salford M7 4FQ, England
+44 (0) 161-740-2745
email <mdsternm7@...>


From: Ginsburg, Paul <GinsburgP@...>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 08:19:39 -0400
Subject: Looking for seforim printed in Sudilkov, Ukraine

I am a collector of seforim printed in Sudilkov, Ukraine and 
I am looking to expand my collection.

Of particular interest are a siddur, Tehillim, Mishnayos,
Chumash, Mishneh Torah, or Chassidic seforim printed 
in Sudilkov.

I am also looking for printings of Degel Machaneh Ephraim
by Rabbi Moshe Chaim Ephraim of Sudilkov.

Please contact me if you have Sudilkov seforim for sale. 

All the best,

Paul W. Ginsburg
Rockville, Maryland


From: Charles Halevi <c.halevi@...>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 23:40:12 -0500
Subject: Ripley's "Believe It Or Not" and the Arch of Titus

Shalom, All:

Immanuel Burton (<IBURTON@...>) asked,
>>Has anyone heard of the custom not to walk under the Arch Of Titus in
Rome?  I will be going there shortly on holiday/vacation, and was told
by someone of this custom.  If it is a genuine custom, what is its
source and reason?<<

I'll let others reveal the source (the reason *seems* obvious; foolish
me). But judging from Page 271 of"Ripley's Believe It Or Not Omnibus,"
Copyright 1929-1934 -- ain't it amazing what one finds in our own
bookshelves? -- it may have been a halacha (not just a custom) to not
walk under the infamous arch

Although Ripley shows ignorance of how a kherem (ban) can penalize
someone but can not make them not Jewish, the fact he heads his story "
No Jew Can Pass Under This Arch," coupled with the item itself,
indicates a rather reasonable chance he is correct.

The copyright has long expired, so here it is, unedited: judge for

" No Jew Can Pass Under This Arch"
	IT IS the famous Arch of Titus, standing in the ruined splendor
of the Roman Forum. No Jew has ever passed under it, and none ever will,
although it has been standing in a place of easy access for more than
eighteen centuries.

	It was erected in the year 70 A. D. in honor of Emperor Titus
and in celebration of his victory over the Jews.  As the destroyer of
the Temple and the perpetrator of the carnage in which almost the whole
Jewish nation perished, "Titus the Miscreant" is easily the most
fervently hated of all Jewish oppressors.  No Jew ever passed under the
Arch, lest he fall under the terrible "Herem" (ban) pronounced by the
supreme religious authorities against any Jew who should pass under
it. To enable them to cross from the Colosseum to the Capitol without
passing under the Arch, the Jews opened a special way midway between the
Arch and the Palatine."

BTW, please cut Ripley some slack when he says "Titus the Miscreant is
easily the most fervently hated of all Jewish oppressors." This was
written before Hitler's "Final Solution."

Kol Tuv,
Yeshaya (Charles Chi) Halevi


From: <nzion@...> (Yehuda Landy)
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 13:16:33 +0200
Subject: Re: Sources?

> From: Ben Z. Katz <bkatz@...>
> Speaking of sources, I remember hearing once an expression something
> like "im ayn lecha ela Torah, af Torah ayn lecha" (roughly "if all you
> have is Torah, then you don't even have Torah").  I would love to see
> the source/context.  Thanks in advance.  Ben Z. Katz, M.D.

	This is a Gemoro in Yevamos, 109b.
	Have a k'sivah v'chasimah tovah.

Yehuda Landy

From: Alex Heppenheimer <aheppenh@...>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2003 07:37:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: Sources?

The basic idea - that Torah study without corresponding mitzvah
observance is worthless - can be found in Tanach (see Tehillim 50:16ff
and Yirmiyah 8:8). However, the phrase you're thinking of is probably
the one in the Gemara, Yevamot 109b: "kol ha'omer ein lo ela Torah, ein
lo ela Torah" ["if one says that all he has is Torah (Rashi: but he
fails to fulfill the mitzvot), then all he has is the (reward for) Torah
study"], which it then amends to "...afilu Torah ein lo" ["...he doesn't
even get (the reward for) Torah"]. The Gemara does go on to propose an
alternate understanding of the original (unamended) expression;
nevertheless, the "afilu Torah ein lo" version is widely quoted as a
truism (see, for example, Shaar HaTziyun 615:6).

Kol tuv,


End of Volume 40 Issue 62