Volume 42 Number 43
                 Produced: Thu Apr 15  6:15:57 US/Eastern 2004

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Bnei Eretz Yisrael keeping one day of yom tov in chu"l
         [David Ziants]
Direction of Prayer
         [Yisrael Medad]
Duchaning Outside of Eretz Yisrael
         [Yisrael Medad]
Havdala after Yomtov
         [Mark Symons]
Havdalah for Shabbat Hol Hamoed (2)
         [Joel Wiesen, Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz]
Kosher Versions of non-kosher
         [Frank Silbermann]
Priestly Blessing Topic (2)
         [Akiva Miller, Shimon Lebowitz]
Punishing School students on Saturday
         [Yitzchak Scott-Thoennes]
Question about Time Measurement
         [Ben Katz]
Targum during torah reading
         [Leah Aharoni]
         [Mark Symons]
They didnt change their LANGUAGE=THE LANGUAGE STYLE
         [Russell Jay Hendel]
"V'Shamru" in Israeli Nusach Ashkenaz Shabbat Arvit
         [David Ziants]


From: David Ziants <dziants@...>
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 02:18:34 +0300
Subject: Bnei Eretz Yisrael keeping one day of yom tov in chu"l

A small remark on David Eisens comment, concerning when an Israeli group
is in/not in a community (from discussion on duchaning):

> ....
> community), it is my understanding that the Bnei EY would keep only one
> day of Yom Tov as their personal status outweighs their current
> geographic location when not in the midst of a Jewish community. 
> Is my understanding correct?

I was told that even when in a community, an Israeli (who intends to
return eventually), should keep one day yom-tov.

No public display of this should be made of this though, thus malacha
(work) can be done in private (according to the Ta"z) and (a man) should
go to shul on 8th day Pesach or last day sheminni atzeret (their simchat
tora) or 2nd day shavauot, with a book to read even though one davened
earlier, privately, with tephillin.

When I was once in England, during my studying years at university, I
was subject to this pesak. I felt very awkward being in shul all the
time for simchat torah, including all the hakaphot and all the aliyot
till the end of musaph, even though the shul was already half empty at
musaph time (I guess those who left, said musaph by themselves, unless
there was a later musaph minyan that I didn't hear about).

I am wondering if I could have skipped out at hakafot and returned for
musaph, and still be OK for the pesak I received.

BTW, I made it my business not to go to my parent's shul at this time,
but to a smaller shul in the area, where I was more anonymous and would
receive less questions when seen not davening from a siddur. Also I knew
that the tephilla at my parent's shul would take even longer, being a
larger, chazanut type shul, with more aliyot, and only one keria. (This
leads to another question which I will present as a separate posting).

David Ziants
Ma'aleh Adumim, Israel


From: Yisrael Medad <ybmedad@...>
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 23:23:02 +0200
Subject: Direction of Prayer

If I recall, the issue of which direction to face during the last stanza
of L'Cha Dodi has been discussed several times.

In the interest of general updates, I would like to bring to the listers
the following information:

in Haviva Pedaya's new book, "Name & Sanctuary in the Teaching of
R. Isaac the Blind", she includes one of his commentaries on the Sefer
Yetzirah and notes (on page 85) that when he writes: "v'hakol ponim
l'ma'arav l'hitpallel" [and all face west when praying], he is not
exactly referring to a specific geographical direction while in Provence
but referring to the Sefirot.  Nevertheless, in her footnote #53, she
includes the Midrash of Shir HaShirim 4:11, Berachot 30A and Yerushalmi
Berachot 4:5 in favor of West.

Yisrael Medad


From: Yisrael Medad <ybmedad@...>
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2004 22:55:05 +0200
Subject: Duchaning Outside of Eretz Yisrael

as per Shmuel Himelstein's response,

      As a kohen, I'm sensitive to this issue.  On a visit we made to
      Hong Kong last summer, we davened in the historic Ohel Leah
      synagogue, where they duchan every day.  According to Rabbi
      Herbert C. Dobrinsky's "A Treasury of Sephardic Laws and Customs,"
      both the Syrian and Moroccan Jewish communities duchan daily.

well, sensitive or not, I guess a Kohen would have to make up his mind:
to follow the custom as, for example, written in the Mishneh Brurah 129,
end of para. 1, or not?

i was, of course, referring to Ashkenazim in my query (several other
non-Ashkenazi list members also pointed out that Sefardim do indeed
duchan daily)

Yisrael Medad


From: Mark Symons <msymons@...>
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 21:48:42 +1000
Subject: Havdala after Yomtov

Why is the nusach of the bracha of havdala after yomtov not changed by
addition of a phrase so that it reads something like "...bein yom
hashvi'i V'YOM TOV, l'sheishet y'mey hama'aseh..." ?

Mark Symons
Melbourne, Australia


From: Joel Wiesen <wiesen@...>
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2004 17:23:11 -0400
Subject: Re: Havdalah for Shabbat Hol Hamoed

We did it the regular way in shul, so I guess so.

> Is Havdalah after Shabbat Hol Hamoed any different than that recited 
> after a "regular" Shabbat?


From: Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz <hsabbam@...>
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 11:38:39 -0400
Subject: RE: Havdalah for Shabbat Hol Hamoed

I just got this (after Yom Tov) so the answer is late, but the answer is no.  
Make a regular havdalah.

Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz - <sabbahillel@...>


From: Frank Silbermann <fs@...>
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2004 16:35:50 -0500 (CDT)
Subject:  Kosher Versions of non-kosher

In V42 N41 Shayna Kravetz wrote:
> When someone Jewish is giving me grief about observing kashrut, I simply
> tell them that I'm "allergic to treif."  This recasts the issue from a
> religious dispute to courteous allowance for another's needs and
> frequently lets the other person find a fresh eye on the issue.

Along those lines, to a nonreligious (and invariably liberal) Jew you
might instead say:

	"Reconstructionist founder Mordechai Kaplan described halacha as
	the folkways of the Jewish people, and an intrinisc part of our

Pause a moment for it to sink in, and then, in a challenging and slightly
hostile tone of voice, follow up with:


Frank Silbermann
New Orleans, Louisiana


From: <kennethgmiller@...> (Akiva Miller)
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2004 23:16:53 GMT
Subject: Re: Priestly Blessing Topic

My previous post in this thread included the line <<< Duchaning is a
matter of minhag >>>

That was a bad misstatement. When a Kohen duchans, he is performing a
Mitzvah of the Torah. I am sorry if I made it sound like a mere
minhag. What I meant was that the question of whether to duchan every
day or only on certain occasions, THAT is a minhag.

Akiva Miller

From: Shimon Lebowitz <shimonl@...>
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 01:36:40 +0200
Subject: Re: Priestly Blessing Topic

> Rather, being a group of Bnei Eretz Yisrael, I'll bet that the psak was to
> continue davening with the same nusach as you use at home. That means no
> "Baruch Hashem L'Olam" in weekday Maariv, no "V'Shamru" in Shabbos Maariv,
> an extra Barchu after shachris and maariv, and everything else like at
> home, including duchaning.

Your other examples of Israeli tefilla look fine to me, but who says
that in Eretz Yisrael we don't say "veshamru" in Shabbos maariv?

Shimon Lebowitz                           mailto:<shimonl@...>
Jerusalem, Israel            PGP: http://www.poboxes.com/shimonpgp


From: Yitzchak Scott-Thoennes <sthoenna@...>
Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2004 16:35:16 -0700
Subject: RE: Punishing School students on Saturday

Russell Jay Hendel wrote:
> The reason you cant eg keep your grocery store open on Shabbath (and
> let people pay you afterwards) is rabbinic--you may start to take
> notes. So too here...going to school is a situation that naturally
> leads to writing...hence it is prohibited EVEN when the specific
> reason for going does not require writing.

I don't think there is a general prohibition on activities that may lead
one to write; I had thought there were several rabbinic prohibitions on
selected activities (e.g. commercial transactions or gifts, borrowing
for a long term or returning something borrowed, measuring or weighing,
rendering a legal decision).

I also had thought a store could operate so long as certain restrictions
were adhered to.

> Furthermore there is a Rabbinic obligation to be joyful on the
> Sabbath. Clearly then it is prohibited to be involved in "punishment"
> which by definition is contrary to joy.

I'm not sure you can generalize from an obligation of oneg (joy) so far
as to say being restricted to a particular place would be a violation.
Would that mean that a prisoner given the choice of release Saturday
morning or Saturday night must choose morning?


From: <bkatz@...> (Ben Katz)
Date: Sun, 04 Apr 2004 22:33:34 -0600
Subject: Question about Time Measurement

They had waterclocks in the time of the Talmud.   The gemara in berachot
as I recall (and probably elsewhere) speaks of them.  They were fairly
accurate and I assume could easily measure a chelek.  Where that latter
unit originated, I do not know.  Why we don't change (eg to minutes and
seconds) is probably a matter of tradition.


From: Leah Aharoni <leah25@...>
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 12:30:43 +0200
Subject: Targum during torah reading

Russell Hendel referred to the Yemenite custom of translating the Torah
reading, explaining that since the Yemenites lived among Arabs, biblical
disputations were not an issue.

I am not sure that this would be a good explanation, since the Yemenites
continue to translate into ARAMAIC and not into Arabic. The Yemenite
community is considered to be living in Yemen since the destruction of
the first temple. The Yemenites never lived in Bavel and Aramaic was
never their spoken tongue. Therefore, the reason for the custom is
clearly NOT to translate the text for those who do not understand

Also, most of the Oriental communities, who also lived among Arabs,
dropped the minhag as well. The question is why did everyone except for
the Yemenites dropped the minhag of translating into Aramaic?

Leah Aharoni


From: Mark Symons <msymons@...>
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 2004 21:40:32 +1000
Subject: Tehillim

What is the rationale for reciting tehillim in times of danger, and
specific ones at that? Eg our synagogue bulletin says that tehillim 20,
83, 121, 130 and 142 are "particularly recommended" at this difficult
time for Israel, and advocates people saying them privately and
publicly. It seems to imply connotations of magic-like power!

With limited time available for prayer, would it not be better to focus
on saying the regular prayers with more kavana, especially where
relevant to the current situation, eg when saying in the Amida v'chol
oyvey amcha m'hera yikareitu (may all the enemies of Your people be
speedily cut off) to think of Hamas etc?

Mark Symons
Melbourne, Australia


From: <rjhendel@...> (Russell Jay Hendel)
Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2004 03:29:39 GMT
Subject: They didnt change their LANGUAGE=THE LANGUAGE STYLE

Leah (v42#35) asks for a source for Rav Moshes interpretation of the
famous Talmudic dictum THEY DIDNT CHANGE THEIR LANGUAGE to mean that the
Jews in Egypt kept a polite style and didnt use vulgar language.

Actually there is a source: The Rambam in his great commentary on Pirkey
Avoth comments on the advice NOT TO TALK TOO MUCH The Rambam lists 5
categories of talk. The Rambam makes it clear that RELIGIOUS talk is NOT
talk in Hebrew but rather talk whose CONTENT is RELIGIOUS. Analogously,
a barroom song sung in Hebrew is still classified as vulgar.

Note: The above source does NOT speak about Egypt. But I think it
obvious that Rav Moshe borrowed the CONCEPTS (Content vs lingual form)
and applyed them to Egypt.

Russell Jay Hendel; 


From: David Ziants <dziants@...>
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 02:04:50 +0300
Subject: "V'Shamru" in Israeli Nusach Ashkenaz Shabbat Arvit

In response to a posting about duchaning outside Eretz Yisrael,
Akiva Miller stated:
> no "Baruch Hashem L'Olam" in weekday Maariv, no "V'Shamru" in Shabbos
> Maariv, an extra Barchu after shachris and maariv, and everything else
> like at home, including duchaning.

According to the Rinat Yisrael siddur (for Israel), "V'Shamru" is said
by most nusach ashkenaz congregations in Israel. The instructional note
implies that it is a minority of congregations that do not add this.

Assuming that the original nusach hagr"a was not to say this, can any
one shed light why this is part of the mainstream ashkenazi nusach in
Israel (which is based on the minhag hagr"a). There are other changes of
nusach in the Gr"a siddur, which is not part of the Eretz Yisrael
mainstream nusach ashkenaz, and I would be interested to hear how this
came about.

David Ziants
Ma'aleh Adumim, Israel


End of Volume 42 Issue 43