Volume 42 Number 46
                 Produced: Sun Apr 18 19:20:23 US/Eastern 2004

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Bnei Eretz Yisrael keeping one day of yom tov in chu"l (2)
         [David Charlap, Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz]
Direction of Prayer
         [David Cohen]
Haggadah question  -  Ke'Hilchos HaPesach
         [Shimon Lebowitz]
An halakhic riddle
         [Mark Steiner]
         [Perets Mett]
Most Common Mispronunciation of Them All (3)
         [Richard Dine, Michael J. Savitz, Shalom Ozarowski]
Shofar Question
         [Paul Ginsburg]
Three Vows
         [Yisrael and Batya Medad]
Veshameru on Friday night (2)
         [Michael Kahn, Shimon Lebowitz]


From: David Charlap <shamino@...>
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2004 17:39:53 -0400
Subject: Re: Bnei Eretz Yisrael keeping one day of yom tov in chu"l

David Ziants wrote:
> David Eisens wrote:
>> community), it is my understanding that the Bnei EY would keep only one
>> day of Yom Tov as their personal status outweighs their current
>> geographic location when not in the midst of a Jewish community. 
>> Is my understanding correct?
> I was told that even when in a community, an Israeli (who intends to
> return eventually), should keep one day yom-tov.

I've also heard this from many sources, but for the life of me, I have
not yet been able to understand why it should be this way.

Assuming I remember my education properly, the original reason for two
days outside of Israel was because of the inability to relay news of
Rosh Chodesh from Jerusalem to communities outside of Israel in time for
holidays (which are usually on the 15th of the month.)  Communities
therefore began observing two days so they wouldn't accidentally work on
Yom Tov.

Today, even though we have accurate calendars and instant communication,
we still follow this as a custom, in order to comemorate what was
necessary back then.

Which is why I don't understand the practice of an Israeli only
observing one day when visiting a foreign country, or of a foreigner
observing two days when visiting Israel.

Back when this practice was out of necessity instead of custom, they
certainly wouldn't have behaved this way.  An Israeli traveling abroad
would be just as much in doubt over the date of Rosh Chodesh as eveybody
else, and would therefore have to observe both days.  Similarly, a Jew
from another country visiting Israel would not have any such doubt and
would be able to observe only one day.

So why don't we, in our comemoration of that practice, practice it today
the way they must have had to practice it back then?

-- David

From: Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz <hsabbam@...>
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 09:17:24 -0400
Subject: RE: Bnei Eretz Yisrael keeping one day of yom tov in chu"l

>From: <bdcohen@...> (David I. Cohen)
>David Ziants wrote:
>> "I was told that even when in a community, an Israeli (who intends to
>> return eventually), should keep one day yom-tov."
>While I see many Israelis in chutz l'aretz for a Yom Tov keep only one
>day, I would be interested in seeing an actual written psak on the
>Also, I would like to know the definition of "eventually" in the phrase
>" who intends to return eventually".

The psak for many of the Bnei Yeshiva who have come home for Pesach only
(and are going back after Pesach) usually comes from the Rabbeim at
their Yeshivah.  Our Rav stated that they must still refrain from
melacha on the second day, can only wear tfillin "btzin'ah" (privately)
and could not eat chametz until Pesach was over here as well.  In
particular this deals with married children who ar in the US for a
simcha (such as the wedding of a sibling) and therefore came for Pesach
as well.

This is based on the halacha that a person traveling keeps the Chumras
of both places when there are differing minhagim (though this is not a
matter of minhagim).

Hillel (Sabba) Markowitz - <sabbahillel@...>


From: David Cohen <ddcohen@...>
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 07:56:58 -0400
Subject: RE: Direction of Prayer

Joel Rich wrote: 
	Yes, my own update from the YU bet medrash minyan is that while
	the aron faces north and the doors are in the east everyone turns
	to the back(south) even though this fits none of the explanations
	we gave(other than since back is usually west the takanna was
	back and lo plug{we don't differentiate}

I know that the merits of using a great-circle route versus using a
Mercator projection to calculate the direction of prayer have been
discussed before, but for those who prefer the great-circle route, it is
worthwhile to note that one heading "north" on Amsterdam Ave. is
actually heading north-northeast, as all of Manhattan is "on a tilt."
This means that facing the aron in the YU bet midrash is closer to the
great-circle route than facing the doors.  Given that the designers had
to make the walls of the room parallel or perpendicular to the street,
perhaps they made the correct choice after all.



From: Shimon Lebowitz <shimonl@...>
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 15:08:14 +0200
Subject: Re: Haggadah question  -  Ke'Hilchos HaPesach

> *	Ke'Ho Lachmoh Anyoh
> *	Ke'Ven Shivim Shonoh
> *	Ke'Negged Arboh Bonim
> *	Ke'Hilchos HaPesach
> I looked around a bit, and asked around as well, and no-one seems to
> comment on this issue (which is always a bit worrying!) - but does
> anyone have any ideas or seen something about this "new" foursome, or
> about the "Ke" in Hilchos HaPesach.
> I saw one Girsoh (can't remember which one) that has Be'Hilchos
> HaPesach, which works out nicely - but then it spoils the potential
> foursome :-(

I am also not familiar with the first one on your list, nor do I
remember seeing it in my haggadah collection. My wife says she remembers
seeing it *in parentheses* in her grandfather's haggadah.

If it is also not the usual girsoh, then you don't have four anyway, as
fun as digging up Pesach foursomes might be. :-)

Shimon Lebowitz                           mailto:<shimonl@...>
Jerusalem, Israel            PGP: http://www.poboxes.com/shimonpgp


From: Mark Steiner <marksa@...>
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 14:51:49 +0300
Subject: An halakhic riddle

	A good part of the shulhan arukh is devoted to rectifying
mistakes, and in that spirit, I offer the following riddle, which I
proposed at the shabbat table recently:

	On Shabbat or Yom Tov, if in error a person begins saying the
weekday prayers--atah honen le-adam da`at, etc., he finishes the berakha
he began in error, and then begins the Shabbat or Yom Tov prayer
(e.g. ata behartanu, etc.)  Now suppose he makes this error during the
evening prayer of Yom Tov, which falls right after Shabbat.  Where does
he recite the havdalah prayer--in the middle of the (mistaken) atah
honen prayer, with the weekday ata honantanu havadalah formula, or in
middle of the atah behartanu prayer, with the Yom Tov havdalah formula
'vatodi`enu', etc.?  Or perhaps the middle of atah honen with the
'vatodienu' formula?

	I don't think you will find this one in the Mishnah Berurah, but
who knows?

Shabbat shalom,
Mark Steiner


From: Perets Mett <p.mett@...>
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 15:40:31 +0100
Subject: "mispronunciations"

Leah Perl Shollar wrote:
>  How about "Pay-sach" for "Peh-sach", or "kiddish" for "Kee-dush"?  I
> use the incorrect forms automatically, but am finding it odd the more I
> think about it.

They would be mispronunciations if they were Hebrew!
However they are correct pronunciations in Yiddish.

The segol in Hebrew Pesach becomes a tseyre in Yiddish - hence 'Peysakh'
Likewise the first vowel in kiddush/kIdish is accented, according to
usual Yiddish rules, and the second vowel becomes a "shvo"

a gitn zimer

Perets Mett


From: Richard Dine <richard.dine@...>
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 09:21:24 -0400
Subject: Re: Most Common Mispronunciation of Them All

On a related note, I once tried to give a series of divrei Torah to the
Youth Minyan of my Shul on the topic of pronunciation and accents, since
the teenagers so often get the accents wrong when leining.
Unfortunately I was considered too old and boring to be effective so it
got dropped after my first dvar torah, but the errors continue (you may
remember that I am the one who posted the request for surveys for a
"Family Feud" Passover game, so I am not always boring!).  Has anyone
seen a good overall summary or presentation on the matter of accents
that would be suitable for delivery to a Modern Orthodox teenage

Richard Dine
email: <richard.dine@...>

From: Michael J. Savitz <michael.savitz@...>
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 09:20:55 -0400
Subject: Most Common Mispronunciation of Them All

If you pronounce dalet (daleth?) r'fuyah "correctly" you solve the
problem of "limad-tem", "va-avad-tem", etc. in the Sh'ma and elsewhere,
BUT you still have the problem with the letter tet, such as in the pasuk
we say on motzei shabbat, "vehavat-ta goyim rabim, ve-ata lo ta-avot."
How do you prounounce *that* with a sh'va nach (as it should be) and not
merge the tet with the tav degusha?

On the other side, one frequently hears a sheva under the first letter
of a word -- which should always be a sh'va na -- pronounced as if it
were nach, where the letters permit such pronunciation.  Thus, one hears
bracha, shma, tshuva, shva, grama, pshat, kriah, etc. instead of
b'racha, sh'ma, t'shuva, sh'va, g'rama, p'shat, k'riah, etc.

From: <Shalomoz@...> (Shalom Ozarowski)
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 11:00:14 EDT
Subject: Re: Most Common Mispronunciation of Them All

I agree on the BGD KFT.  While shva & dagesh are important especially
for q'riat sh'ma & the like, I would humbly submit that the "worst"
routine mistake of (ashkenazi) ba'alei q'riah is the infamous qamatz
qatan (or kamatz katan/koton if you like, I dont discriminate), since
mispronouncing it as a regular qamatz gadol often changes the actual
meaning of the word.  For example, Chodashim=months [with chataf qamatz]
becomes Chadashim=new.  Or, Oniot=boats [its somewhere in tokhacha in ki
tavo] becomes Aniot=poor people (also an ayin/alef issue, which I guess
also changes meaning but ashkenazim just don't have a 'mesora' to
differentiate.  Non-Teimani Mizrachnikim [middle eastern sfardim] who
pronounce qamatz and patach the same also occasionally alter meaning).

On the bright side for grammar/hakpada freaks, I have noticed a growing
trend of more makpid ba'alei q'riah on fine dikduk in American shuls.  I
imagine the recent Tiqun simanim and similar aids (or perhaps just
Halakhic exactness) have contributed to this phenomenon.

Kol Tuv,
Shalom Ozarowski


From: Paul Ginsburg <GinsburgP@...>
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 08:11:02 -0400
Subject: Shofar Question

I recently bought a shofar and want to learn how to blow it for my wife
and daughter who may possibly not be able to get to shul on Rosh
Hashanah. How many notes do I need to sound so they can fulfil their
obligation of hearing the shofar? What is the best way to learn how to
blow a shofar?   Would you recommend the "How to Blow the Shofar" tape
at http://www.chadishmedia.com/ ?

Any guidance would be greatly appreciated. 
Thank you in advance for your assistance. 

All the best, 
Paul W. Ginsburg 
Rockville, Maryland 


From: Yisrael and Batya Medad <ybmedad@...>
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 13:10:21 +0200
Subject: Three Vows

I was asked a while back in a private posting to provide more info on
this issue but I cannot now recall the person who inquired.

So, please bear with me as I note the final chapter in Aviezer
Ravitzky's book in Hebrew, "HaKetz Ha'Mguleh uMedinat HaYehudim", Am
Oved, 1993, pgs. 277-305, entitled "Shelo Ya'alu BaChoma" in addition to
his other chapter devoted to the Munkatch Rebbe as well as Reb Yoelish


From: Michael Kahn <mi_kahn@...>
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 13:13:26 -0400
Subject: RE: Veshameru on Friday night

>The question of saying or not saying Veshameru on Friday night is not a
>question of Minhag, but one of Halachah. According to some views, it is
>considered a Hafsakah - an interruption - at that point of the prayer.

I learned in Chaim Berlin for many years and often daven there and they
do not say vashumru on Friday night.

Just curious, who are the sources.

From: Shimon Lebowitz <shimonl@...>
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2004 15:08:15 +0200
Subject: Re: Veshameru on Friday night

> The question of saying or not saying Veshameru on Friday night is not a
> question of Minhag, but one of Halachah. According to some views, it is
> considered a Hafsakah - an interruption - at that point of the prayer.

Reb Shmuel, 

I don't really think that this changes it from a matter of minhag to a
matter of halacha. Since AFAIK *everyone* holds that one should not
cause unnecessary interruptions between Geula and Tefilla, the question
is just "is Veshomru considered an interruption". This then becomes a
matter of agreement on halacha, and disagreement on whether the minhag
to say veshomru is valid, or is such an interruption.

Consider "baruch haShem le`olam" at the same place in the service. In
Eretz Yisrael we do not have the custom to say it (in spite of my always
feeling that its final berocho was particularly beautiful), but in the
rest of the world they do.

Shimon Lebowitz                           mailto:<shimonl@...>
Jerusalem, Israel            PGP: http://www.poboxes.com/shimonpgp


End of Volume 42 Issue 46