Volume 42 Number 52
                 Produced: Tue Apr 27  6:42:25 US/Eastern 2004

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

Ashkenazi Kohen Duchaning outside of Israel in a Sephardi minyan
         [Frank Reiss]
Dani-el and Daniel
         [Shalom Ozarowski]
Dani-el or Daniel
         [Yehuda Landy]
Every Jew benefits from hametz every day
Fanny Neuda
         [Yael Levine Katz]
Music During The Omer
         [Elie Rosenfeld]
Prohibition of Benefiting from Chometz
         [Dov Teichman]
R' Akiva's students and Bar Kochva
         [Yehuda Landy]
Raising of Hands
         [Michael Poppers]
Resources in US for Yeshiva tuition help
         [Frank Reiss]
Selling of Chametz
Tallitot for divorced men
         [Wanderer, Simon]


From: Frank Reiss <freiss47@...>
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 21:05:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Ashkenazi Kohen Duchaning outside of Israel in a Sephardi minyan

This point was mentioned in passing a few weeks ago and I haven't seen
any response. I think the Kohen would Duchan because that is his minhag.


From: <Shalomoz@...> (Shalom Ozarowski)
Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2004 02:37:20 EST
Subject: Re: Dani-el and Daniel

> There are plenty of individuals mentioned in Tanach in a single location
> about whom we know nothing else, and plenty of characters missing that
> we only know about from extra-Biblical sources (e.g., Sargon, king of
> Asyria whom the Bible skips over, despite the fact that he played a
> significant role in the exile of the Northern kingdom after Sancherev
> died).

IIRC there was more than one assyrian king named Sargon, since the name
is mentioned in Tanach, in Yeshayahu 20:1.  I recall theres a machloket
among meforshim attempting to speculate who he was, with some saying it
was another name for sanncheriv.  I think Da'at Mikra concludes based on
archaeological evidence of Assyrian records that it was Sanncheriv's
father (hence probably not the one Ben was referring to above).

Note that you often find midrashim or sources in Chazal attempting to
identify nebulous biblical characters with other, more prominent ones (a
few examples are ketura with hagar, mal'achi with ezra [or mordechai],
hatach with daniel, and many others).  The Ibn ezra often argues with
these assertions and claims it was someone else who is otherwise
unmentioned, since the identification is more likely an individual
opinion than an established tradition ('im kabala hi nekabel').  [Are
these examples somehow different from Pinchas=Eliyahu and the like?]

I therefore have no problem with Ben and Nachum's position, and i think
passing historical references can help focus the careful reader of
Tanach towards which events or details the text considers important by
its emphasis (one example is selection of events mentioned in Yitzchak's
life).  But writings of nevi'im certainly had their contemporary
audience in mind; after all those were the people they preached to in
the first place.

Purim Sameach all,
Shalom Ozarowski


From: <nzion@...> (Yehuda Landy)
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 17:54:26 +0200
Subject: Re: Dani-el or Daniel


	I guess my entire point was missed. I never said there cannot be
references to other figures who we know little about. But in cases of
Amrafel, Hanefilim, Achashveirosh etc.  the Tanach will give us a brief
introduction to who the figures was/were. Amrafel was the King of
Shinar, Achashveirosh was the king who ruled from etc. The Nefilim are
described in the end of the Possuk, "asher yov'ou etc. In our case the
possuk mentions Daniel without giving any background material, who was
he and where he came from. The Daniel we have is the known one. Could he
possibly be referring to someone else unknown to us? As I said I find
this inconceivable.

	Take the beginning of the sefer for example, which begins with
the story w/o any background material and in the third possuk the story
is interrupted with the background material, (see Rashi ibid.).

	A word about Da'at Mikra. There are various authors to the
various sifrei Tanach, and its hard to say that all confirm to a single
standard. Artscroll is meant to use the traditional approach and no
more. Da'at Mikra tries to bridge the gap between the traditional and
the scientific approach. I have no problem with that in general, but of
course there times where I feel that an idea mentioned there is
incorrect or totally unacceptable.

	Mr. Katz, just because the moderator let something in doesn't
mean that I have to agree even if he rejected other things. I'm glad to
say that he does a nice job, but I don't always necessarily agree with
his decisions. Neither do I expect all to agree with my opinions.

					Yehuda Landy


From: c.halevi <c.halevi@...>
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 15:37:30 -0500
Subject: Every Jew benefits from hametz every day

Shalom, All:

<Smwise3@...> wrote:
>> On the 8th Day of Pesach ....I pass two major commercial bakeries.
While of course it is no problem on the 2d Day of Yom Tov, but on the
last day, when for Bnai Eretz Yisroel chometz is permitted, the bakeries
are working full time and the aroma of chometz wafts through the air.
Of course, I can't stop breathing, but I do wonder whether the aroma of
freshly baked chometz is considered a prohibition of benefiting from
chometz on Pesach.<<

But we all benefit from hametz sold *every* day of Pesah because food
and whiskey are taxed, and those taxes provide money for police,
firefighters etc.

Yeshaya (Charles Chi) Halevi


From: Yael Levine Katz <ylkpk@...>
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 14:43:16 +0200
Subject: Fanny Neuda

Fanny Neuda's Studen der Andacht, published in the nineteenth-century,
was printed in many editions.

Her husband, Abraham Neuda was a rabbi in Moravia. I was wondering to
what extent her book was considered traditional, and whether it would be
befitting to include excerpts in an anthology of prayers geared for
Orthodox women today.



From: Elie Rosenfeld <erosenfe@...>
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 22:03:22 -0400
Subject: Music During The Omer

In mail-jewish Vol. 42 #50 Digest, Immanuel Burton writes:

> ....what the custom is with regards to listening to
> music, and the answer given was that there are two customs:

> (1) A total ban on listening to all music during the period of the Omer
> that one observes as a mourning period.

> (2) A ban only on public entertainment during the mourning period that
> one is observing.  According to this custom, attending a concert would
> not be permitted, but listening to music at home or in one's car and so
> on would be permitted.

> Does anyone have a source for this second custom?

This has been discussed in MJ in the past - I will briefly give my usual
answer, which is to turn your last question around.  That is, the burden
of proof would be to show that non-live (recorded/radio) music *is*
included in the ban, since it obviously did not exist when the sefira
customs originally developed.

Given that, the decision as to whether listening to recorded music gives
one the same level of simcha as hearing a live band, seems to be a
highly subjective one that would differ from person to person.
Personally, I have always listened to recorded music during sefira, but
"your mileage may vary".  For what it's worth, the official view in
Yeshiva University (at least when I was there 20 years ago) was to
permit non-live music, as the school radio station continued to
broadcast during sefira.

Hope this helps,

Elie Rosenfeld


From: <DTnLA@...> (Dov Teichman)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 18:37:04 -0400
Subject: Re: Prohibition of Benefiting from Chometz

> I do wonder whether the aroma of freshly baked chometz is considered a
> prohibition of benefiting from chometz on Pesach.  And if it is, is
> the prohibition less because the 8th Day is mi-derabanan?

This may me found in other places but the Be'er Heitev in Siman 447:1
(7) at the end says that its forbidden to smell hot bread on Pesach even
that belonging to a non-jew.

Dov Teichman 


From: <nzion@...> (Yehuda Landy)
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 04:44:51 +0200
Subject: Re: R' Akiva's students and Bar Kochva

According to Rav Shrirah Gaon they died as result of shmad. This leads
to speculations by modern day historians that their deaths had to do
with Bar Kochva. There is no written source for this elswhere (as far as
I know). The historian Gedalyah Alon for example raises this
possibility, but later rejects it. According to Chazal, after the
passing away of the talmidim, R. Akivah tought 5-7 (depending on the
various sources) talmidim. We know that R. Akiva was executed by the
Roman Governer Turnusrufus, who operated around the time of the Bar
Kochva rebellion. This must leave ample time between the deaths of the
orginal talmidim and the execution of R. Akivah, to enable him to teach
the new talmidim. He therefore pushes back the deaths of the original
talmidim to before the Bar Kochva revolt. Either way there is no ancient
source that mentions this possiblity.

						Yehuda Landy

> From: Aryeh Levine <aryehdl@...>
> Everyone is familiar with the gemara that says why R' Akiva's 12,000
> pairs of students died.  As to how they died, all the gemara says is
> that they died 'bemitah ra'ah' (Yevamot 62b).  I vaguely remember seeing a
> Gaon who says that they died by the sword, and IIRC the implication of the
> person showing this to me was that they died in the Bar Kochva rebellion. 
> Does anyone know where, if at all, this appears in the writings of the
> geonim?  I know that Rav Eliezer Melamed has a similar interpretation in
> his Pninei Halacha (found online here
> http://www.yeshiva.org.il/midrash/shiur.asp?id=301 in the second
> paragraph), where he expands upon the idea, but he brings no source. Kol
> Tuv, Aryeh Levine


From: <MPoppers@...> (Michael Poppers)
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2004 22:01:46 -0400
Subject: Re: Raising of Hands

In M-J V42#51, Yisrael Medad wrote:
> Several persons, ... <
Including yours truly.
> ...in reply to my mentioning a source I found in R' Isaac the Blind
> regarding the raising of hands as a custom being halted after the Temple's
> destruction and to avoid copying early Christian customs, as interpreted by
> Chaviva Peaya in her new book, suggested that this raising of the hands was
> not by Kohanim during duchaning but a general
> custom of all worshippers....
> Nevertheless, she summarizes by insisting that Moshe's act is one akin to
> duchaning.

Such insistence is, I guess, better than considering that Amalek-related
episode a source for n'sias kapayim, but I think the kinship relates
only to the arms and not to the hands, which are a crucial element.

Seems to me that the common point between all "raising of hands"
examples is directing one's palms towards/against the object of one's
intent, hence Ex17-11 ("yorim...yoniach" to&from Shomayim [see Rosh
HaShanah 3:8/BT Rosh HaShanah 29a]) means palms directed upwards while
Lv9-22 ("vayyissa..el ho'om") means palms directed towards the people.
When performing t'nufah, waving of an offering, such as one might do
when bringing "first fruits," one's palms are upward, against the
offering; when performing s'micha, such as an unintentional sinner might
do when bringing a "sin offering," one's palms are directed downward,
resting upon the offering; etc.

All the best from

-- Michael Poppers via RIM pager


From: Frank Reiss <freiss47@...>
Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2004 21:09:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Resources in US for Yeshiva tuition help

I am unfortunately facing a difficult finacial period. I have had to
take a low paying job, after working maybe 2 months in 2003. I simply
cannot pay any tuition. The Yeshiva is only willing to reduce the tution
by 30 % or so, and of course they just raised it again. Is there
somewhere a foundation or group that can help, if you know please email.


From: <Smwise3@...>
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2004 14:34:21 EDT
Subject: Re: Selling of Chametz

>I have never heard of a problem about this, but how is the issue
>avoided?  No kinyan is necessary for him to reaquire the chametz, so who
>owns it at that time?  Does the contract with the non-Jew stipulate that
>the return of chametz happens whenever Pesach ends for the Jewish owner,
>whereever he may be?  If so, shouldn't that be something provided at the
>time of the sale so it can be included in the contract?

My Rav has a special shtar mechira (sale document) for people who travel
to Israel for Pesach.  It takes into account the time differential so
that there is no doubt such as the one your son had.



From: Wanderer, Simon <simon.wanderer@...>
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 16:28:16 -0000
Subject: Tallitot for divorced men

I once saw a book (sorry, can't remember its name) which quoted a
possible reason for starting to wear a Tallis only when married. This
was a "psuedo-G'zeira-Shava" based on the fact that the command of
G'dilim Ta'aseh L'cha appears next to a Pasuk referring to marriage (Ki
Yikach Ish Isha) [I know that Pasuk is not *the* Ki Yikach Ish Isha
Pasuk, but this whole thing wasn't my idea].

Interestingly, the book associated this idea with German tradition,
whereas I understand that Germans are one of few the groups who *do*
wear a Tallis before marriage.



End of Volume 42 Issue 52