Volume 42 Number 83
                 Produced: Sun May 30  8:02:33 US/Eastern 2004

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

         [Carl Singer]
How far need one go?
         [Immanuel Burton]
Indian Hair in Sheitels
         [Bill Bernstein]
Modesty and Hair-Covering
         [Frank Silbermann]
Vocalization of Mordechai
         [Perets Mett]
Wigs (2)
         [Martin Stern, Nachman Yaakov Ziskind]
Yemenite and Ashkenaz nusach (3)
         [Stan Tenen, Dov Bloom, David Ziants]


From: Carl Singer <casinger@...>
Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 07:59:30 -0400
Subject: Fasting

> I'm slightly confused by that last paragraph, but here's my attempt to
> decipher it. Carl recommends adjusting our sleep schedules on a fast day
> to wake up with sundial time, rather than clock time. I discussed the
> implication of this above, concerning waking hours on Tisha B'Av and Yom
> Kippur.
> I'm unsure whether Carl recommends adjusting our eating schedules to
> follow sundial time on a regular basis, but I have noticed that one is
> much more likely to eat three large meals on a summer shabbat than one
> is to eat three large meals on a winter shabbat (where Seudah Shlishit
> must be much closer in time to Seudat Yom Shabbat). Your appetite
> follows the watch, apparently. I assume the halachot about eating dairy
> after meat follow the watch as well.

I'm the last person to comment on eating habits -- I'm simply observing
that our sleeping and eating habits during long (summer) days impact our
perception and behavior as regards to fasting.  Simply put, the fast
seems longer.

I don't know if the various minhagim re: how long one waits between meat
and dairy (or other either direction, re: "hard cheeses") are based on
an halachic hour or a clock hour or a clock hour adjusted to cover
maximum length of an halachic hour.  I.e. do those who hold only one
hour -- really mean 72 minutes, etc.

A quibble: If one uses a fixed number of minutes vis a vis sunset to
determine the start and end of any fast then all fasts are essentially
the same length (variance is only the varying length of two consecutive
days, i.e. if sunset eruv fast day was at 7:30 and on fast day itself
was 7:31 then a minute has crept into the fast -- if in other direction
as days are growing shorter the fast is, itself, a minute shorter.)  BUT
if one uses calculations that vary with the "halachic hour" -- that is,
again, 1/12 of the period of time between sunrise & sunset, then a few
more minutes of variance occur depending on season.

Carl A. Singer
70 Howard Avenue, Passaic, NJ  07055-5328
(973) 472-2531
<casinger@...> ; www.mo-b.net/cas


From: Immanuel Burton <IBURTON@...>
Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 12:44:00 +0100
Subject: RE: How far need one go?

> > ... I recently bought a religious English-language magazine
> > published in Israel, which had "HaSh_m," and - this one I had never
> > seen - "Heav_n forbid."

Presumably, therefore, the first person personal pronoun will have to be
replaced by a hyphen, as in "- am the L-rd thy G-d who took you out of
the Land of Egypt".

I have seen "All-h" in an Orthodox Jewish newspaper, so indeed, exactly
how far does one go?

Immanuel Burton.


From: Bill Bernstein <bbernst@...>
Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 08:48:51 -0500
Subject: Re: Indian Hair in Sheitels

<<An extremist approach to not benefitting from anything connected with
Avodah Zara would seem impossible to maintain.  Certainly, there have
been at times water offered to idols, and even a single cup of such
water once well-mixed into the worlds oceans will distribute millions of
molecules into any cup then taken.>>

The Rambam, in Ch.8 of Avoda Zora defines what is forbidden from
benefit, anything that does not have "tefisas yad" or that a person did
not make is permissable for benefit.  He specifically mentions
mountains, hills and trees.  This makes sense.  If some fool were to
worship the sun would that mean we should all wear long veils?

Similarly, I have not read the articles about the Hindu practice.  I
wonder whether the ritual is shaving the head rather than bringing the
hair.  Could a Hindu find someone else's hair and bring it to the temple
and fulfill anything that way?  I tend to doubt it but I am not versed
enough in these things.

Bill Bernstein
Nashville TN.


From: Frank Silbermann <fs@...>
Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 06:50:51 -0500 (CDT)
Subject:  Modesty and Hair-Covering

> On Sat, 22 May 2004, N Miller wrote:
> But the idea that hair is immodest only after marriage isn't strange
> at all if we consider that a Jewish woman once married is the property
> of her husband and that public modesty is required of her that is not
> required of girls.

You don't have to interpret this in terms of propety.  Couldn't we
simply say that hair is attractive and that it is natural and proper for
an unmarried woman in public to want to attract a man to become her
husband (unlike, say, a married woman who already has a husband)?

Analogously, it is appropriate for a bochur of the right age to be set
up with a shidduch date with an eligible maiden (say, at an airport
terminal).  However, it would be improper for me to do that, being
already married and all that.

Frank Silbermann
New Orleans, Louisiana


From: Perets Mett <p.mett@...>
Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 14:31:29 +0100
Subject: Re: Vocalization of Mordechai

Some recent quotes--

> Thirdly, the [l] in cordless is a liquid consonant (which is capable of
> acting like a vowel in a syllable in English) and the [x] in Mordechai
> is a fricative. They behave differently, and at least in my mouth, I
> cannot pronounce Mordechai without a voiced sheva after the d (while I
> can with cordless).

However, in Yidish, the normal pronunciation is mord-khe, with the 'r'
realised as a consonant (and the 'o' as what you might call a komats

Yidish speakers have no difficulty in pronouncing all three consonants!

Perets Mett


From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 12:27:05 +0100
Subject: Re: Wigs

on 25/5/04 11:48 am,Shayna Kravetz <skravetz@...> wrote:

> Martin Stern  replied:
>> We learn the din that a married woman must have her hair covered in
>> public from the ritual of Sotah (woman accused by her husband of
>> consorting with another man) in which the kohen uncovers her hair. This
>> obviously only applies to a married woman.
> Not so fast!  Those poskim who allow women to wear hats alone (i.e.,
> without wigs) so that their heads are covered but their natural hair
> also shows would disagree.
> The authorities are conveniently collected in R. Mayer Schiller's
> excellent article in Journal of Halacha, vol. 30, pp. 81-108.

I have glanced through the article but not checked the references. As
far as I can see the mattirim who refer to hair protruding outside the
tichel must be talking about hair on the temples (of the head not
Tiraputi!), as I recall being mentioned in the literature, not long
tresses hanging out at the back. The latter would not protrude from a
properly fixed tichel unlike the case with many hats. Though many women
wear such hats I do not know of any reputable posek who has allowed them
rather than merely not actively objecting, probably assessing that the
women would otherwise not even partially cover their hair. Perhaps
someone could let me know of any of which they are aware.

Martin Stern

From: Nachman Yaakov Ziskind <awacs@...>
Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 09:49:52 -0400
Subject: Wigs

> From: Alan Friedenberg <elshpen@...>
> As part of the never-ending discussions about wigs at the Shabbos table
> the last few weeks, a question came up about "auto-donation."  Would a
> frum woman be allowed to cut off her hair, have it made into a shaitel,
> and then wear it?

I vote for yes. The kabbalistic concepts behind covering women's hair
emphasize (as far as I remember) the evil inflicted behind the
emanations from the scalp - something to the effect that the hair give a
yenikah (feeding) to chitzoniyim (external, i.e. evil, forces) from the
holiness in the body to which they are connected to. Cut the hair, break
the connection and the attractiveness to the evil side goes away.

#include standard_disclaimer.h
Nachman Yaakov Ziskind, EA, LLM         <awacs@...>
Attorney and Counselor-at-Law           http://ziskind.us
Economic Group Pension Services         http://egps.com


From: Stan Tenen <meru1@...>
Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 06:31:09 -0400
Subject: Re: Yemenite and Ashkenaz nusach

>From: <MJGerver@...> (Mike Gerver)
>Does anyone know the historical reason for this similarity between
>Temani and Ashkenazi nusach? I don't think either of them could have
>borrowed these things from each other, so I suppose they must have both
>borrowed them from the same place. Perhaps nusach Ashkenaz and nusach
>Teman both derived from Eretz Yisrael, while the Sephardi nusach derived
>from Bavel?

I don't know. But I think there is need for some research here.  A
recent book by David Keyes claims -- based on USGS tree-ring data --
that there was an enormously catastrophic explosion of Krakatoa (in
Java) at about 535 CE.  The explosion was much greater than any known in
recent times, such as those that took place in the 1880's, I believe.

According to Keyes, it was so bad that the skies were darkened at
temperate latitudes for between 1 and 3 summers, world-wide.  This meant
that there was mass starvation, and mass migration.  The plague was
unleashed from Africa.  This is the period when both churches and
synagogues (so it appears from different sources) destroyed the
iconography used to decorate them. This may have been the time when
Zodiac mosaics, found on the floors of ruined synagogues, were first
defaced.  The idea was -- world-wide -- that since the summer sun had
failed, everybody's religious experience was somehow "off" and
ineffective.  Why else would God seem to turn his back on the world?

This is the same period when our Savora'im were apparently unable to
complete the Gemara, and unable to pass on the entire tradition to the
Geonim who followed.

One of the events that may have taken place was the destruction of the
short-lived Jewish kingdom in Yemen.  Apparently, there was a massive
earthen dam across southern Arabia, that was breached by the torrential
rains caused by changing weather patterns at that time.  The survivors
may have fled to places like Alexandria and Sura and Pumbadita (in one
of their phases).  There were also mass movements in search of sun and
food throughout Europe and Asia.  Apparently, one had to go as far north
as Scotland to find the summer sun.

It seems to me that if Keyes is right -- and this remains to be seen --
then it might be very productive to carefully comb the history of the
period between about 500-600 CE for records of these events and their

Your question with regard to nusach Ashkenaz and nusach Teman may find
its answer here.

Does anyone know if there is any further research since that reported by
Keyes, and does anyone know if there has been any discussion of this in
our schools and among our scholars?  I'd be very interested in hearing
about it.

Hag sameach Shavuos,

PS One further note.  The events ca. 535 CE could have been what
triggered the founding of Islam about 100 years later.

From: Dov Bloom <dovb@...>
Date: Tue, 25 May 2004 19:15:26 +0200
Subject: Re: Yemenite and Ashkenaz nusach

>Temanim say several things in their davening that are also found in
>nusach Ashkenaz, but not in nusach Sephard or the Sephardi nusach.
>1) At the end of the kedusha, both Temanim and Ashkenazim say "le-dor
>va-dor nagid gadlecha..."
>Does anyone know the historical reason for this similarity between
>Temani and Ashkenazi nusach? .. Perhaps nusach Ashkenaz and nusach
>Teman both derived from Eretz Yisrael, while the Sephardi nusach derived
>from Bavel?

I think Mike Gerver is on the button with theory. Of course this only
applies to part of the Yemenites: there are Shami and Baladi nuschaot ,
and the Shami (literally Syrian) are very influenced by post 16th cent
Ari and nusach Sefarad while the Baladi retain ancient Yemenite

Another examle :Yemenites (Baladi) Shofar blowing on RH Musaf is for
instance only during chazarat haShatz and not during silent amida
(Sephardim blow during amida belachash)

Baladi say "mimkomha malhenu" during amida every day , I come across it
at "mincha minyonim"

Dov A Bloom

From: David Ziants <dziants@...>
Date: Wed, 26 May 2004 22:19:01 +0300
Subject: Re: Yemenite and Ashkenaz nusach

From: <MJGerver@...> (Mike Gerver)
 .... snipped
> do, Temanim say several things in their davening that are also found in
> nusach Ashkenaz, but not in nusach Sephard or the Sephardi nusach.
 .... snipped
> 2) Both say "Ba-meh madlikin" on Friday night.

In the Sephardi (nusach yerushalmi) shuls I had sometimes been to Friday
night, Ba-meh madlikin *is* learnt, and this seems to come instead of
"lchu nerannana". They seem to make it a major component of Kabbalat
Shabbat, unlike Ashkenazim who seem to treat this as an optional extra
(e.g. read the parsha sheet at this juncture).

So the Temani shul you were at, is similar to Sephardi shuls (at least
then ones I have seen) regarding "Ba-meh madlikin".

You are correct that Ba-meh madlikin is not part of the (ashkenazi)
nusach Sephard, as far as I know.

David Ziants
Ma'aleh Adumim, Israel


End of Volume 42 Issue 83