Volume 42 Number 97
                 Produced: Thu Jun 10  7:09:48 US/Eastern 2004

Subjects Discussed In This Issue: 

24 Hour Candles (2)
         [Batya Medad, Batya Medad]
Courageous Call for Hesbon Nefesh Within RZ Camp
         [David Eisen]
Duchaning at Mincha
         [Perets Mett]
Duchaning on Shabbat (3)
         [Martin Stern, Perets Mett, Yehonatan & Randy Chipman]
Meat with Fish _Broth_? (2)
         [Yitzchak Scott-Thoennes, David Ziants]
Naming after Parents
         [Batya Medad]


From: Batya Medad <ybmedad@...>
Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 16:57:31 +0200
Subject: Re: 24 Hour Candles

      >> ones go out early.  Almost every year my next door neighbor and I
      >> "take turns" needing a light for the second night of RH.
      >2 suggestions:
      >  1: freeze the candle - laugh all you want, but my 24 hour frozen
      >candles have yet to last less than 28 hours and have gone up to 35
      >  2: Light the second candle 3pm - nothing says you have to wait
      >till night of the 2nd to light the second candle. Light it at 3 (or
      >whatever) then warm your hands or check your fingernails with it.

I should have reminded you that sometimes Rosh Hashannah begins on
Shabbat, and for those years your tricks can't be done nor relied on.
Murphy's Jewish.  (My parents actually had neighbors for awhile who were
Jewish Murphys, at least the wife and kids.)


From: Batya Medad <ybmedad@...>
Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 17:00:18 +0200
Subject: Re: 24 Hour Candles

      I've even begun to see 48-hour candles made in Israel that are in
      plastic, not glass or metal, containers or jars.  Even if the
      plastic is not supposed to be flammable -- which is unlikely --
      this has to be insane.

Refills.  They are refills, at least that's how I use them.  Keep the
old glass, and put in the new candle, and throw out the plastic.  And be
careful about using the word "insane."



From: David Eisen <davide@...>
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 16:49:20 +0200
Subject: Courageous Call for Hesbon Nefesh Within RZ Camp

See attached a link to a Hebrew article in Yeshivat Har Etzion's weekly
Daf Kesher distributed to its students currently serving in the army
penned by HaRav Amnon Bazak, RaM in YHE and editor of the popular
Shabbat b'Shabato (the flagship Shabbat weekly of the DL community that
preceded virtually all of the dozens of sheets that clutter most Batei
Knesset in Israel), in honor of Parshat Shlach.

IMHO, this is truly a brave piece that clearly was not easy for RAB to
write, yet nonetheless a burning issue within him that needed to be
published. He tackles head-on basic tenets held dearly by the RL world
based on the teachings of the Neviim Rishonim and a sober dosage of
realpolitik, and in particular discusses the concepts of Reishit Tzmihat
Geulateinu, the "Divine Hand" behind the recent Gaza referendum and the
need for a renewed commitment to establishing a society on the basis of
morality, justice and hesed and less involvement in political issues
dealing with security and settlement. He expressly requests feedback to
the points raised therein.



David Eisen
E-mail: <davide@...>
Direct Dial:            (972-2) 623-9276
U.S. WebPhone:  (1-786)  380-4069


From: Perets Mett <p.mett@...>
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 16:48:48 +0100
Subject: Duchaning at Mincha

  Benschar, Tal  wrote:

> (Parenthetically, we should also duchan at Minchah, except that we are
> worried that he Cohanim may have drunk in the meantime and not be
> allowed to duchan.  On a fast day, when there is no such worry, then
> most nuschaos have duchaning in the last brachah, and indeed in Israel
> the Cohanim duchan at Minchah on a fast day.  In fact, on Yom Kippur,
> they duchan four times: Shacharis, Musaf, Minchah and Neilah.  
> Likewise,
> on Shabbos and Yom Tov, duchaning is at both Shacharis and Musaf)

No they don't . There is no dukhenen at mincho on Yom Kipur (O Ch 129:1
& 622:4).  "Borkheinu baberokho....." is said though.

In fact, even at mincho on a Taanis tsibur dukhenen is not unequivocal.

According to the mechaber (129:1) dukhenen at mincho of a taanis should
only take place "just before shkio".  In practice this is interpreted to
mean mincho ketano (cf eg the Belzer sidur).  I have heard that in some
places they dukhen at mincho gedoilo on a taanis, but I do not know on
what authority that is allowed.

Perets Mett


From: Martin Stern <md.stern@...>
Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 15:18:16 +0100
Subject: Re: Duchaning on Shabbat

on 8/6/04 12:53 pm,  Alan Friedenberg <elshpen@...> wrote:

> The shule where I grew up (and the shule I daven at now) also don't
> duchen in the "regular" sense when Shabbos and Yom Tov conincide.  The
> kohanim go up on the bima, say the bracha, and duchening commences.
> However, there is no "singing part" - the chazan says the words and the
> kohanim repeat them straight through, without delay.

This is duchening! The singing is not essential and is in fact omitted
in Israel as anyone who has been there will know. Personally I very much
regret this Israeli 'custom' and would urge the reinstatement of the
traditional tunes on the Yamim Tovim.

In the German Jewish tradition, there is a specific tune for each one
which is also used at the end of Yishtabach / Kaddish / Barekhu and
during Hallel for the four verses from Hodu LaShem and the two of Ana
Hashem (and on Sukkot for the Hodu at the end).

These musical traditions are of such antiquity that the Maharil (14th
century) calls them MiSinai niggunim which may not be altered (see Sefer
Maharil, Hil. Yom HaKippurim, where he tells a very scary story of what
happened to him personally when, as shats, he made a minor alteration in
the local nusach when visiting Regensburg).

Quite apart from halachic considerations these melodies help to set the
mood for the particular Yom Tov, which is particularly valuable for
those less learned members of the community who may not understand their
special tephillot so clearly.

On Shabbat one is not allowed to say the prayer concerning dreams,
Ribono shel olam, nor the Yehi ratson that replaces at the end of the
third verse.  Some people may not be aware of this prohibition and this
may be the reason why Alan Friedenberg's shul omitted the tunes in
duchening then.

Martin Stern

From: Perets Mett <p.mett@...>
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 16:53:04 +0100
Subject: Duchaning on Shabbat

Alan Friedenberg wrote:
> The shule where I grew up (and the shule I daven at now) also don't
> duchen in the "regular" sense when Shabbos and Yom Tov conincide.  The
> kohanim go up on the bima, say the bracha, and duchening commences.
> However, there is no "singing part" - the chazan says the words and the
> kohanim repeat them straight through, without delay.

The singing part isn't part of nesias kapyim anyway. it is inserted to
allow time for the community to say the tekhine.  On Shabos, when we do
not say tekhines, there is no point in the kohanim singing.

Of course in those communities where the tekhine is not said on a
regular basis (i.e. wherever dukhenen is every day, or at least once a
week, and also among Polish -not Galitsyaner- chasidim) the kohanim
never sing anyway.

Perets Mett

From: Yehonatan & Randy Chipman <yonarand@...>
Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 20:41:11 +0200
Subject: Re: Duchaning on Shabbat

In MJ v42n93, Tal Beshachar writes:

<<I believe there is a Rambam which states that whenever there is a
positive commandment with no specific time then at minimum one must
fulfill the mitzvah at least once a day.  <SNIP> >>  

The Rambam he's referring to is in the heading of Hilkhot Tefillah
u-Nesiat Kapayim,where Rambam gives a short definition of each mitzvah
treated in the halakhot that follow. He states there explicitly that the
kohanim say the blessing every day -- even though this halakha is not
repeated as such in the actual halakhot (Tefillah chs. 14-15).

<<(and indeed in Israel the Cohanim duchan at Minchah on a fast day.  In
fact, on Yom Kippur, they duchan four times: Shacharis, Musaf, Minchah
and Neilah.>>

This is not correct, On Yom kippur there is no dukhaning at Minhah,
because Neilah serves the role of Minhah on that day, and the permission
for dukhaning on fast days is because it is recited then close to
sundown, and is hence visibly different from Minhah on ordinary days,
when (at least in the old custom) it was significantly earlier in the

Two interesting notes about the practice in Eretz Yisrael: 

On Tisha b'Av there is actual dukhaning at Minhah, even though there is
none at Shaharit, because of the deep mourning of that tefillah.  

On Yom Kippur, it is customary in most places to begin Neilah much
earler than outside of Israel, so as to finish all the selihot and reach
Birkat Kohanim before sundwon.  "Avinu Malkeinu" is then stretched out
to fill in the time till the final "Sheimot" and Tekiat shofar.
Presumably the sundown time limit for dukhaning is based on its analogy
to avodat mikdash.  l've never actually found a source for this custom
in print.  OTOH, Maharil allows dukhanimg till full nightfall, at least
bediavad -- also indicating that Birkat Kohanim was done at Neilah on
Yom Kippur in medieval Ashkenaz, unlike the custom today outside of

<<This of course begs the question of how Minhag Ashkenaz can nullify a
Torah obligation.  The answer I heard in a shiur is that the obligation
on the Cohanim only begins when they are called to duchan, which we
learn from the phrase "Amor Lahem."  The minhag is simply not to call
the Cohanim to duchan.>>

That's still a kind of begging the question.  And why don't we "amor
lahem"?  (and what about a single kohen, who goes up withot being
called?) The naswer given is that outside of Israel, people are in a
constant state of melancholy, anxiety, and worry about parnasha, except
on Yamim Tovim, and dukhaning must be said in a state of joy. (tov lev
hu yevorakh / yevarekh).  Thus in Ram"a to Orah Hayyim 128.44.

Yehonatan Chipman 


From: Yitzchak Scott-Thoennes <sthoenna@...>
Date: Tue, 8 Jun 2004 08:47:02 -0700
Subject: Meat with Fish _Broth_?

Rabbi Eidlitz once said to me that even a Worcestershire sauce marked
OU-Fish contains a negligible amount of fish, and may be treated as if
it were not there.  I deduce from this that at least some accept a

There used to be a fishless sauce called something like "The Wizard"
under the KSA, but last I knew it had lost it's hechsher.  I think there
may still be a fishless sauce sold by Geffen.

From: David Ziants <dziants@...>
Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 21:34:26 +0300
Subject: Meat with Fish _Broth_?

From: Stan Tenen <meru1@...>
> I know the majority opinion is clearly that one should not eat fish with
> meat.  There's also a minority opinion that it's okay.
> I'm wondering, assuming that it's not okay, where the dividing line is. 
> There is no possibility here of mistaking the final product for anything
> but fleischig, because the two pounds of meat would be very noticeable,
> and it would not be possible to mistake this either for fish or anything
> else pareve.  Also, there is no possibility of accidentally being
> injured by swallowing fish bones, because we're dealing with fish broth,
> and/or at worse, pulverized anchovies -- i.e., no bones.

Another idea on a reason for not eating meat and fish on the same
plate. This is my own theory - but am not sure if I heard it from
somewhere or not:

A few generations ago, when people had less utensils including less
parev kailm (= pots/dishes that are neither used for meat or milk), they
might often cook the fish in a milk pot. This will make the fish
"b'chezkat chalavi", and the law is for ashkenazim (at least according
to the Rav where I live) that one may not eat such food together with a
meat course, but may eat this directly before or directly after, even at
the same meal.

Because it was so common to cook fish in a clean milk pot (not used 24
hours I assume-?), it was treated as "b'chezkat chalavi", and eaten
separately. I understand that Sephardim are allowed to be more leniant
on "b'chezkat chalavi", but also permit meat with fish.

In any case, maybe we can look at the laws of "b'chezkat chalavi" and
meat to know what to do for fish and meat? - Any support/flaws for me on
my reasoning?

May be it was the other way around. Because of the kabbalistic/ physical
danger reasons brought down in our halacha sources of not eating fish
and meat together, people saw no reason not to cook the fish "b'chezkat
chalavi" although would be used in a meat meal, but of course {pun} as a
separate course. Assuming the laws of meat and milk ought to be more
strict then our custom of meat and fish, we could still look at
"b'chezkat chalavi" as our maximal line.

BTW, the issue of "b'chezkat chalavi" sometimes comes up in my locale
where special, extra tasty Shabbat challot can be bought from some of
the local bakeries, and "b'chezkat chalavi" together with the
ramification is well marked next to the kashrut certificate.

David Ziants
Ma'aleh Adumim, Israel


From: Batya Medad <ybmedad@...>
Date: Tue, 08 Jun 2004 17:05:15 +0200
Subject: Re: Naming after Parents

      >married kids wanted to name baby boys after "grandpa" and were told by
      >very respected poskim that they couldn't use the exact name, since it's
      >also the father's, and he's (ad meah v'esrim) still alive.

      This minhag apparently does not apply to Sephardim. I know a

True.  that's why I emphasized that our neighbors are "very machmir,
ashkenazim."  Most sephardim and yeminites name after living
grandparents.  The big problem is in the "mixed" marriage.  Some keep
both minhagim, meaning naming kids after both live and dead relatives,
while other search for names not yet used in the families.



End of Volume 42 Issue 97